[PR] No HoS whitelist requirement on Saturdays

[Mouse]

In the event that the HoS whitelist is ultimately removed I'd recommend keeping a record of it around. If there's another tide you're probably going to want it again.

[qwertyenthusiast]

mostly here to present what happened a couple of hours ago in goon1, since it's a pretty interesting incident related to saturday HoS.

so, for context, one of the non-whitelisted players rolled HoS twice, which indeed prompted some mutiny from the station. it started out as a meme protest, but around the 10-15 minute mark, people were throwing out actual accusation against the HoS for murdering crew and possibly rampaging with their gear. that got kind of proved as soon as the armory was authenticated and a boom was heard from sec. from what i gather, though, is that 4-5 people were full-on tiding sec and some antags took advantage of the tide to do their business. the tide only ended once a whitelisted and battle-tested HoS joined in as NTSO and tried to solve the shitshow with the HoS (they came in genuinely confused, wondering whether it was revs or a rampaging HoS.) right after that, i can only assume that an admin attempted to intervene the situation, since the HoS said that they had to explain the situation and how they didn't actually murder half of the crew.

i don't believe that this incident is a symptom of a problem with saturday HoS itself. tiders gonna tide, after all. but i do believe that this is the result of an actual culture shock as people figure out how this saturday HoS thing works and what the boundaries between crew and the untrained HoS are. the two really cool side-effects from this whole incident is that 

1. i gained some more respect for the non-whitelisted HoS, as they didn't just turn on lethals and gun down the tiders. that's some maturity as sec that you wouldn't really see in more incompetent sec, and does give me faith that the people who pick the role in the saturdays do understand the gravity of the role and can act accordingly when the situation calls.
2. what actually ended the tide was the intervention from a whitelisted player coming in as NTSO and helping the HoS with the tide. this also really gives me a lot of faith in the community, as that's quite literally a proper HoS helping out what could be a future HoS.

that's pretty much it. the admins already hashed it out with the people involved so this isn't as much of a report as a retelling of a small incident that i found kind of interesting. extending a little further on that second thought, if there was to be a change on how it works, it'd be neat if there could only be one non-whitelisted member in a whitelisted role. so if there's a non-whitelisted HoS, only a whitelisted player can join as NTSO, and vice-versa. this allows for a trained player to give their tips and support when things start getting out of hand.

[Silent Majority]

A second period on rp. I worked as hos, with hos, and observed. I never saw powers being abused, i saw security act with a bit more cohesion, and saw antags get plenty of room to do their bits and generally saw things proceed well.

I noticed a lot of the new hos where trying to take back seat positiknd during my rounds, which I feel is one of the better places for them. Overall a good change still I feel. I don't have the data, but i think trying a de whitisted weekend week would be a logical next step

[Kotlol]

I played most of saturday to only play traitor 3 times in a row (HOLY SHIT!)

Chaplain, HoP and Cargo.
With cargo being my worst round but not due to security at all. But by wraith and antag fatigue. I was already doing 2 rounds of traitor back to back and now a 3rd in cargo wich is my "I will fill this if needed" role. (Was a second quarter master so eh)
Didn't know what to do at that point so i just did goofy stuff like spraying paint around and spreading mischief till the wraith started an epidemic and I went full "I HAVE GRENADES AND I WILL USE ON YOU! YOU FUCKING RATS!" Died in medbay since the wraith had a living crate with 2 pipe bombs in them that blew up in my face with my grenades. HILARIOUS END.

Chaplain was good, security did NOT arrest me for my traitor chaplain gimmicks, they had a hint I was doing chaos but couldn't pin it on me and thus let me go. (I appriciated it since I was being obivious but not causing too much mayhem, the worst I did was release 2 yeti's, rest was just giving the crew powers and letting them do mayhem and organizing funny bits).

HoP was my 3rd round in a row and I was pretty dang fatigued... It was a legendary round but I won't say much on the things that happened cept Security played BRILLIANTLY along with it. To the point of my arrest where it became a puzzle of evidence against me, me getting accidentally mindhacked by another traitor and using that as an alibi to get out of jail for free... But I couldnt say it (mindhacked duh), so I basically played it chill and slow, letting security puzzle out I was mindhacked (they had evidence that I said: "I had some implants from this guy" to the AI. Wich was before I knew they were packet sniffing.)
And after they removed my implant and thought I was a good guy again... grabbed a gun.. tried to bust out my fellow traitor who got arrested and.. FAILED SPECTATULARLY!

Security also were chasing me with 6 people that round and... well it was a comedy show since 95% of all shots hit eachother. So they just ended up hitting eachother constantly to the point someone went: How much security does it take to catch a traitor?!

Overall I enjoyed all 3 rounds regardless and security was a good sport and fun. I felt like I could goofy antag or aggresive antag just correctly without them batoning me like crazy.... or arresting me since: "I KNOW FROM A META SENSE YOU ARE DOING THIS EVIL." Nope.. all security gathered evidence against me to arrest me insted of: "I know this was you cause only "THIS TRAITOR" can do it." They did their due diligence and I went with it.

So far all my concerns of too aggresive HoS's /NTSO's did NOT happen. Infact the inverse of security happened where they are all chill and doing their job correctly.
No grabbing the baton cause someone is on arrest or anything. Just good RP where I can give clues of my schemes or be a silly goober antag or a dangerous one.

[James_TheSnail]

I want to come back and change my statement. These past Saturdays have given me new insight and feelings on this PR, and I think a lot of my concerns were unfounded. I think this is a great opportunity for players to try out HoS and learn what it's like and what responsibilities you have as one, and it can help people who want to learn and try out HoS, but I still don't think we should remove the whitelist entirely. Ultimately, HoS is as much a teaching role as it is the boss of security, I think being able to play to role to learn it is great, but in the end I still believe some players are more focused on doing HoS gimmicks as opposed to playing HoS to teach, not that there aren't players who do play because they want to teach, just that I believe they will be in the minority. Overall I'd say I think keeping it to Saturday is a great idea, but we should still restrict it during the rest of the week.

[Silent Majority]

Just adding again, a new week in

Seeing the HoS slot routinely filled is really fun, where as every other day i see every command slot filled but hos still empty most shifts

[BurgerWithButter]

I’ve a few mixed comments but overall the idea of security Saturday is really fun, I’ve liked seeing people try the role. The one thing I wanna ask is:Is there plans past this PR? The “Why’s this needed?”section and some comment have had me and others wondering if this is a precursor to removing the whitelist in its entirety or not

[Sord213]

While I find it likely I'll merge this permanently and have nowhitelistsaturdays, there are no plans to remove the whitelist entirely or rework it.

[Torchwick]

Imo that’s the best case scenario. Having one day with no whitelist is great for allowing everyone to get a turn, while also not taking away from the achievement and joy that many people already put into getting HoS. I’ve been loving the whitelist day!

[Kazoh]

Personally I think that the HoS whitelist should be changed to the NTSC whitelist. It makes sense to me since they are supposed to be consultants sent by centcomm for the security team/HoS. That would allow the more experienced whitelisted players to be actual consultants for the less experienced new HoS players. Though maybe that would just cause resentment for those HoS players who feel like they're being ordered around by their NTSC.

[Skotcher]

Personally I think that the HoS whitelist should be changed to the NTSC whitelist. It makes sense to me since they are supposed to be consultants sent by centcomm for the security team/HoS. That would allow the more experienced whitelisted players to be actual consultants for the less experienced new HoS players. Though maybe that would just cause resentment for those HoS players who feel like they're being ordered around by their NTSC.

I think it's better to keep both roles open on Saturdays if it's only one day a week. Ideally, players should get the chance to try both roles. But I still like the idea! 

Maybe the PR could be expanded to have Sundays be no whitelist for HoS but whitelist for NTSC. Or the opposite! Give aspiring HoS players a chance to be an NTSC and play with a slightly larger tool set, while a whitelisted HoS oversees them. Either way, I'm quite happy with the current PR.

[JORJ949]

I don't like the idea of having HoS/Captain fundamentally different on a certain day of the week or that kinda makes it being a trial run pointless as they have different accesses on other days. I think the HoS should retain armory access as that's a key part of their role on the station, being there to determine when the armory is warranted.

[Zombie]

I don't like the idea of having HoS/Captain fundamentally different on a certain day of the week or that kinda makes it being a trial run pointless as they have different accesses on other days. I think the HoS should retain armory access as that's a key part of their role on the station, being there to determine when the armory is warranted.

Agree, while I understand the initial reason for not granting it we have seen so far that the players who do pick HoS take the role seriously enough, to give them that ability to go grab a token for an officer who got blown up, thermals against a cloaker or whatever little thing that doesn't need the entire armory authorized.

[Silent Majority]

I don't like the idea of having HoS/Captain fundamentally different on a certain day of the week or that kinda makes it being a trial run pointless as they have different accesses on other days. I think the HoS should retain armory access as that's a key part of their role on the station, being there to determine when the armory is warranted.

I would counter I'm not against the armory always requiring authorization.  This both warns and entices antags

[RubberRats]

Now that this testmerge has been given a few weeks to cool, I have noticed a pattern on lowpop where nearly every round I play on Saturday has an NTSC acting up in some way. Being overly aggressive, dressing in outfits that hide their role, ignoring the chain of command, all things I wouldn't want to see from even an ordinary security officer. While people would rightly say to ahelp that behavior (I did), it has happened frequently enough and with enough different people that I think something more should be done to address it.