[DISCUSSION] Medical Pharmacy vs. Chemistry

[Agent reburG]

There is a difference. You are talking about -what- chemical they should be able to make. And even more so about chemicals that depsrtment doesn't need. A place of supply.

I am talking about if a department should be making chemicals at all. And about chemicals thst department needs to function. A  place of demand.

Your discussion is worthwhile to have. Of course the bar doesn't need the chem dispenser.

If we want to talk about this properly, then we're talking about removing the bar dispenser. Botany offers most of the chems there. Stock up the booze vendor, kill off all dispensers in the bar.

You want to talk here about modifying the selection of choices in a system (chemistry system). I am talking about the option to remove the access to that mechanic at all in a department.

Well to clarify, since I didn't seem to properly do that before, I was being sarcastic. 

The reason why both have and need a dispenser, is because they are not supposed to just stick with what just their vendors offers them, but also experiment with the formula. 

Both supply the crew with something, the Bar with various drinks, Medbay with medicine, while their distribution changes from lying on a table to controlled application, neither solely keeps chems for themselves. 
That doesn't mean they can't use it for their own sake, but cut some slack and let them have it
They could function without, but without their freedom to do their own attempt at the job, it losses a significant amount of the fun factor. 

People like cooperation, but hate depending on each other. 

If someone request something, and after twenty minutes they still haven't gotten said thing it goes:

They asked but could have done it themselves:
 "Damn maybe I should learn to do it myself "

Said person is the only way: 
"This stupid fuck won't do it, let me get some authority figure to yell them into submission so they get me what I want"

The current change is supplementary, which means previous implementation was replaced by an alternative way. 
The new way was an addictive acquisition previously, one that was unreliable before.

[GARGATHUGANOKSREVENG]

I was calling out the hypocrisy, I don't want them to remove it, but they just close their eyes about the similarities. 

They wouldn't dare to go after that.

ok fair enough I keep getting mixed messages from this thread and every time I see someone imply removing more chem dispensers or limiting chems I get another brain aneurysm

---

People like cooperation, but hate depending on each other. 

If someone request something, and after twenty minutes they still haven't gotten said thing it goes:

They asked but could have done it themselves:
 "Damn maybe I should learn to do it myself "

Said person is the only way: 
"This stupid fuck won't do it, let me get some authority figure to yell them into submission so they get me what I want"

also can't emphasize this enough

[Solenoid]

Echoing Torchwick and AgentOrphan, and echoing what I've mentioned earlier, the main thing the pharmacist role needs is to be given adequate access to the usual chemistry stuff to feel playable imo. Just give them the generic, filled chemistry table in their pharmacy and that is generally going to be enough. Phenol/acetone, sulfuric acid, and oil remain my biggest pain points with the Pharmacist, and those things are so important for so many chemicals.

The changes do feel somewhat rushed, and while I'd love to contribute to fixing that, my computer can barely run the game itself, let alone the editor to make changes. I wish there had been more thought into making sure a pharmacist can do their job before it was PRed. What was acceptable to not have as a medical doctor suddenly becomes necessary if we want a specialized chemistry role in Medbay. It'd be like not giving roboticists surgery tools, it completely cuts off a whole segment of their gameplay.

The argument about whether or not a pharmacy is good for the game or whatever, to me, is all talk "above the table", I'd like to see the pharmacist role made competent and fully functional before we judge it, personally. It's already in the game, so let's make it the most fun it can be, then judge whether or not it lives up to expectations and affects gameplay once we've had time to see how that works out.

[JORJ949]

I'm going to ask that from now on this thread be used for things the pharmacist/pharmacy is missing rather than many long responses arguing over the correct implementation. Actionable ideas rather than feelings can help improve and flesh out the pharmacist and their role. The Pharmacist is still a work in progress with active discussion in dev channels as to how to give them more to do (E.g. cutting down on the excessive amount of specialist chemicals in the medical vendor and being able to make autoinjectors (Discussion is not a guarantee, these are just a couple ideas that were brought up)). I will probably personally work on improving pharmacies across the board so the pharmacist has more chemistry equipment, blinds for crime/photophosphide, and the dispensary interlink being between chemistry and medical so its easier to deposit chemicals in it.

Like solenoid said, argument over if the pharmacist fits is pointless before we fully examine and flesh out what they need. Sifting through 7 pages of mostly arguments is not helpful when trying to find constructive feedback.

[Lord_earthfire]

I feel the only think they are really lacking is a single barrel in their department. Most chems are doable by beaker alone, but pent is really improved by having a barrel for the cyanide. Also large synthflesh postules.

[Vandry]

I feel the only think they are really lacking is a single barrel in their department. Most chems are doable by beaker alone, but pent is really improved by having a barrel for the cyanide.

You can print barrels from the medical fab now so I think that's covered already.

[ANNmagedon]

Ok now that pharmaciat been out for a while i gotta say, very flawed.

You get outperformed by a botanist 2 minutes into a shift

Or

You work half a shift, run out of medchems to do and no one uses them

Or

No pharmacist so botany just sends you plants that get unused


I have yet to see a sjngle satiasying pharmacist round. You cant be the dedicated chemist when botany & sci outperform you, you cant be the dedicated chemist if no one WANTS to touch your stuff

[FireKestrel]

I'm going to ask that from now on this thread be used for things the pharmacist/pharmacy is missing rather than many long responses arguing over the correct implementation. Actionable ideas rather than feelings can help improve and flesh out the pharmacist and their role. The Pharmacist is still a work in progress with active discussion in dev channels as to how to give them more to do (E.g. cutting down on the excessive amount of specialist chemicals in the medical vendor and being able to make autoinjectors (Discussion is not a guarantee, these are just a couple ideas that were brought up)). I will probably personally work on improving pharmacies across the board so the pharmacist has more chemistry equipment, blinds for crime/photophosphide, and the dispensary interlink being between chemistry and medical so its easier to deposit chemicals in it.

Like solenoid said, argument over if the pharmacist fits is pointless before we fully examine and flesh out what they need. Sifting through 7 pages of mostly arguments is not helpful when trying to find constructive feedback.

Is there a reason why the development team is so committed to this change? The stubbornness around this change has felt so frustrating as a player.

[ThatScarlett]

Some feedback:

Security currently has no acces to the Pharmacy (Officers, Detective, Head of Security, have not seen but I assume nor does NTSC), which is a pain if the Pharmacist is an antagonist.
(Tested on classic, RP sec probably have no acces either)

In addition, as the role will have some weight on Medbay's functionality, I suggest making it roundlocked as if a new player gives it a try and doesen't have any chemistry/med chem experience/leaves the game it could have bad outcomes for medical. Like 10 rounds as doctor and 10 rounds as scientist, or 10 scientist and 5/no doctor, just some examples.
Unsure if heads of staff have round locks, if not, then this suggestion can be discarded.

[glowbold]

Is there a reason why the development team is so committed to this change? The stubbornness around this change has felt so frustrating as a player.

its been less than a week

[FireKestrel]

Is there a reason why the development team is so committed to this change? The stubbornness around this change has felt so frustrating as a player.

its been less than a week

And it's this sort of flippant response to shut down discussions around the change that make it feel so frustrating.

[glowbold]

Is there a reason why the development team is so committed to this change? The stubbornness around this change has felt so frustrating as a player.

its been less than a week

And it's this sort of flippant response to shut down discussions around the change that make it feel so frustrating.

We want to try a thing out before reverting it, and there have been several patches already to address things brought up. The underlying problem of chemistry not supplying medical with chemicals is unresolved. Some of the issues in this thread need to be resolved regardless of whether we keep or ditch the pharmacist.

I think labelling all this as stubborn is over the top. Equally as frustrating is attempts to shut down changes before they have been given a chance to settle.

[FireKestrel]

We want to try a thing out before reverting it, and there have been several patches already to address things brought up. The underlying problem of chemistry not supplying medical with chemicals is unresolved. Some of the issues in this thread need to be resolved regardless of whether we keep or ditch the pharmacist.

I think labelling all this as stubborn is over the top. Equally as frustrating is attempts to shut down changes before they have been given a chance to settle.

If chemistry not supplying medical is the absolute underlying issue that these changes is targeting (which was not listed as the reasoning for the original PR), then my view is that I think the team is missing the fact that a large part of this issue stems from medical being overstocked at roundstart. I play doctor a lot, and most rounds I simply don't need to request chemicals from anyone at all because the three nanomeds, lockers full of medkits, port-a-nanomed, port-a-medbay, sleepers, and cryo tubes usually provide enough tools to keep the crew alive for an entire round. Most doctors start the round by printing multiple hypos and filling them with enough chems to tackle any situation, all without anything that a chemistry lab could provide. What chemistry and pharmacists currently provide are chems, that while better, simply don't warrant the extra effort to acquire because the starting supplies are good enough, and can be immediately acquired at roundstart without needing to wait for another player.

But I digress. I don't think making a PR and merging it within 3 hours without any kind of discussion was a healthy move for the game. Ideally there should have been a thread to gage the community's feelings on this issue first, rather than jumping straight to implementation of the development team's idea. Even a surprise testmerge would have felt better. Immediately merging what most players believe was an unfinished PR into main feels permanent, as if the team has already come to a conclusion and won't budge on it. And the request to only use this thread to discuss changes to the current implementation only exacerbated that.

[Lord_earthfire]

I have yet to see a sjngle satiasying pharmacist round. You cant be the dedicated chemist when botany & sci outperform you, you cant be the dedicated chemist if no one WANTS to touch your stuff

I mean the "noone wants your stuff" is the same problem botany, cargo and chemistry have. That's a systemic problem, not one specific to the pharmacist.

[glowbold]

If chemistry not supplying medical is the absolute underlying issue that these changes is targeting (which was not listed as the reasoning for the original PR),

"Always seemed off to me that we added these whole pharmacy setups to every medbay when we have chemistry departments while expecting all doctors to be chemists. Now we have a dedicated chemical maker for medbay. Eventually maybe possibly we'll get rid of chemistry from science entirely but that's not what this PR is about." ?

other feedback noted, good points made