[DISCUSSION] Medical Pharmacy vs. Chemistry

[Emimiyu]

The thing is, I'm not against a specific chemist role. In fact that's exactly what I want. I just don't think they should be medbay exclusive, they should be in science imo. I don't care that doctors can't make their own chems, but I truly and 100% believe that the same could be achieved better by giving science the role.

Again, pharmacist role has been in game for ages. Why is it now a problem?

Because it was a non-guaranteed gimmick job akin to medical specialist and not a proper role??

Why is it good to stay as gimmick role? I do enjoy pharmacist to focus more on medchems rather than focusing to heal.

[FireKestrel]

The thing is, I'm not against a specific chemist role. In fact that's exactly what I want. I just don't think they should be medbay exclusive, they should be in science imo. I don't care that doctors can't make their own chems, but I truly and 100% believe that the same could be achieved better by giving science the role.

Again, pharmacist role has been in game for ages. Why is it now a problem?

Because it was a non-guaranteed gimmick job akin to medical specialist and not a proper role??

Why is it good to stay as gimmick role? I do enjoy pharmacist to focus more on medchems rather than focusing to heal.

I didn't say it should say it stay as one, I'm just saying that it's not a good comparison. A permanent role with it's own access that other roles don't have is not the same as a gimmick job who's role could be fufilled by any other player in that department.

[GARGATHUGANOKSREVENG]

not just more impactful but give us a bigger variety I think. more possibilities for different things to happen. though I think your idea about broken arms and stuff has merit and I've personally been thinking about limb damage mechanics as well

There was a PR to add bones that can break.

Guess why it wasn't merged? Yeah, our system is so simple that it was too complicated to treat for a lot of people.

just make broken bones equally as simple
I think you could make more in-depth injuries fit into this game if you built it off the mechanics we already have, without making it into a super uber turbo 999 hyperrealistic medical system
I think limb damage should be added so if you're hacking at a corpse for like 2 minutes with a sharp object you can delimb it. not sure about alive people

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The thing is, I'm not against a specific chemist role. In fact that's exactly what I want. I just don't think they should be medbay exclusive, they should be in science imo. I don't care that doctors can't make their own chems, but I truly and 100% believe that the same could be achieved better by giving science the role.

I do dearly hope you're not saying they should remove chemistry access to sci and instead shoehorn it into a specific job you have to choose like the other guy

[Torchwick]

not just more impactful but give us a bigger variety I think. more possibilities for different things to happen. though I think your idea about broken arms and stuff has merit and I've personally been thinking about limb damage mechanics as well

There was a PR to add bones that can break.

Guess why it wasn't merged? Yeah, our system is so simple that it was too complicated to treat for a lot of people.

just make broken bones equally as simple
I think you could make more in-depth injuries fit into this game if you built it off the mechanics we already have, without making it into a super uber turbo 999 hyperrealistic medical system
I think limb damage should be added so if you're hacking at a corpse for like 2 minutes with a sharp object you can delimb it. not sure about alive people

---

The thing is, I'm not against a specific chemist role. In fact that's exactly what I want. I just don't think they should be medbay exclusive, they should be in science imo. I don't care that doctors can't make their own chems, but I truly and 100% believe that the same could be achieved better by giving science the role.

I do dearly hope you're not saying they should remove chemistry access to sci and instead shoehorn it into a specific job you have to choose like the other guy

No, I think they should give science a dedicated chemist role, but still allow general scientists to access the area. Something like how roboticists still get doctor access. My suggestion is basically entirely that chemical production should be science’s thing and the implication of this PR moving toward eventually cutting Chemistry entirely is weird imo

[Solenoid]

I played pharmacist last night on RP! It was ok, but my biggest gripe is that they had no chemistry tools given to them, which makes them feel very weak, and ironically makes it so they suck especially hard at making any sort of actually advanced chems without going to science(which on donut2, the map we were on, is nearly impossible to do regularly on lowpop). 

I think that pharmacist should be either given access to more chemistry tools that help them do their job as a sort of specialized med-chemist on site, or it should simply be phased out. I don't think anyone wants to play a half-functional chemist, I certainly didn't find the job that fun without all the bells and whistles of chemistry that make that role shine. It just felt like I was wasting my time vs. playing science or med doc, because the job lacks the tools to do either job effectively on roundstart.

[Frank_Stein]

To me, it seems like the easier to have a role like Pharmacist that can go between medical and science, like a liason

But there's definitely something to be said for the fragmentation of roles. It's simpler and more open ended to just have "Doctor" than it would be to have "Pharmacist" or "Surgeon" or "Anesthesiologist"

I dunno. We already have the systems in place to modify a job title and access, but maybe you could streamline things with something like job tokens, where you could spec a general job towards something more specific.

[Agent reburG]

Okay, but considering how things currently are... 

... Do we abort the PR maybe and return it properly or... 

... Do we brute force everything to fit around it how it is at the moment? 

I think this thread brought up some very good points, issues and solutions. 
But it feels a bit of dogs going up the walls, as long nothing is happening.

[glowbold]

I played pharmacist last night on RP! It was ok, but my biggest gripe is that they had no chemistry tools given to them, which makes them feel very weak, and ironically makes it so they suck especially hard at making any sort of actually advanced chems without going to science(which on donut2, the map we were on, is nearly impossible to do regularly on lowpop). 

I think that pharmacist should be either given access to more chemistry tools that help them do their job as a sort of specialized med-chemist on site, or it should simply be phased out. I don't think anyone wants to play a half-functional chemist, I certainly didn't find the job that fun without all the bells and whistles of chemistry that make that sort of playstyle fun. It just felt like I was wasting my time vs. playing science or med doc, because the job lacks the tools to do either job effectively on roundstart.

What specific tools do you think are missing?

[sunkiisu]

To me, it seems like the easier to have a role like Pharmacist that can go between medical and science, like a liason

But there's definitely something to be said for the fragmentation of roles. It's simpler and more open ended to just have "Doctor" than it would be to have "Pharmacist" or "Surgeon" or "Anesthesiologist"

I dunno. We already have the systems in place to modify a job title and access, but maybe you could streamline things with something like job tokens, where you could spec a general job towards something more specific.

I intended to make my own comments first after reading through the thread, but I do really like something along these lines. I know it was mentioned previously also having chemstry being given it's own role and area, and something I've been thinking personally is that it makes far more sense to give chemists their own general role / dedicated area (As Jay said, I think letting scientists still access the dispensers/lab area is the best case scenario) and having general access between medical and science both. Medsci (at least in my opinion) is already somewhat married or coupled as departments as they have some overlap and depend on one another for different things.

Personally, I think it would work better that medical didn't have chem dispensers, and I would much rather not have a pharmacy than to specifically try and shoehorn a specialized job into a niche responsibility that doesn't actually see much use aside from a few players who sign up to use the pharmacy in particular. I play medical almost exlusively, because it's my favorite, and very very rarely do I ever use the chem dispenser -- When I do, it's to make more space cleaner, because we usually only have one bottle and medbay gets bloody. Chemmaking, especially with the past rework, is a whole other science (ironically enough) that I'm not interested in tackling as a doctor when base chems work just fine so long as you know well enough what each of them does.

I think the point about medical being isolated enough is something that's really important to me as well, mostly because I think there's a misunderstanding in some cases that medical LIKES to be isolated, or that it's intentionally cliquey or something. Personally, I don't enjoy it, but given SS13's usual gameloop is "Do your job -> get shot at -> get fixed up -> get shot at some more -> maybe die and get revived," medical is in a position where it's very easy for an intense round to coop doctors up in the lobby waiting for the next bullet wound or corpse to be cloned. I don't know if that's an issue that can be solved by moving chemistry, but further incentivising a specialized role that makes med self-reliant just further decreases a doctor's need to branch out or leave.

There have been multiple times in the past that I actually disliked the pharmacy because it felt like it made the chem request system sort of useless, and other times when there are no scientists who can or want to make what I want and I was grateful to have a backup so long as I figured out how to use it. Ultimately, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink, and I think in that sense trying to revoke access from either science or medical will come with it's complaints because the applications for both are always met with "what-if" and "Just in case" scenarios. 

TLDR;

- A specialized chemist / pharmacist role would be neat, but I think it should be bridged between medical and science (with general access to both) for the best of both worlds. 
- Science should retain a majority of the custody over chemmaking, I do personally agree that if chemists / pharmacists are a specialized role, regular medical doctors shouldn't have access BUT regular scientists should be allowed. 
- If chemistry is it's own category, ideally I think it should stay located either in science or between both departments.
- Incentivising chem requests is a sick idea, I liked what was said about boxes giving chem equipment or artifacts in return.

Generally my biggest gripe with this is that it's another specialized medical role that's likely to be underused as it currently stands, and it would be better to merge it with science and bridge medsci in a more concrete way while diversifying science roles instead of having 5 doctor roles versus "scientist, research trainee."

[cheekybrdy]

I'd personally rather a Chemist role in science in a similar fashion to what earthfire said earlier, though I'm just glad that there's motion in this debate thats been coming up for ages.

[GARGATHUGANOKSREVENG]

I do dearly hope you're not saying they should remove chemistry access to sci and instead shoehorn it into a specific job you have to choose like the other guy

No, I think they should give science a dedicated chemist role, but still allow general scientists to access the area. Something like how roboticists still get doctor access. My suggestion is basically entirely that chemical production should be science’s thing and the implication of this PR moving toward eventually cutting Chemistry entirely is weird imo

ah thank the lord
I am indifferent on this, I just really hope no nutcase decides to remove sci's access to chemistry

[Lord_earthfire]

No, I think they should give science a dedicated chemist role, but still allow general scientists to access the area. Something like how roboticists still get doctor access. My suggestion is basically entirely that chemical production should be science’s thing and the implication of this PR moving toward eventually cutting Chemistry entirely is weird imo

I don't think we should give scientists access to the chemlsb, if we split it off.

Maybe they can have a chem dispenser in a lab somewhere for basic chems, but idiots tiding in your department is just awfull.

Although i seriously doubt scientists need chemistry access when "making chems" stops being their duty.

[GARGATHUGANOKSREVENG]

I don't think we should give scientists access to the chemlsb, if we split it off.

Maybe they can have a chem dispenser in a lab somewhere for basic chems, but idiots tiding in your department is just awfull.

Although i seriously doubt scientists need chemistry access when "making chems" stops being their duty.

WOW IT'S ALMOST LIKE CHEMISTRY IS A BRANCH OF SCIENCE OR SOMETHING 

I really would like to remain civil here but this is threatening like the only thing I still play this game for and I think it's both fundamentally ridiculous to remove something integral to science from science, and also would suck as a person who regularly plays that job and is passionate about.

I like the gameplay of scientist a lot. you sign up, and you're given a wide selection of different things (artifacts, teleportation, chemicals, toxins, ETC) to learn and mess around with. these groups of science are interchangeable, artifacts have chemicals, teleportation can pull in artifacts, teleportation can send bombs away, the moment you tear something out of that loop you're going to really ruin someones day, and for no real reason too.

[Torchwick]

The idea of job tokens is actually very neat, too. Something to consider for the future instead of all this fragmentation. But to the point, I'm glad to see a lot of people have very passionate opinions about this. A lot of good points are being made, so I hope these are all taken seriously. Keep up the good discussion, folks!

[GARGATHUGANOKSREVENG]

just realized you can't make stable mutagen in med anymore without the one in a million chance there's a pharmacist so that really sucks, hopefully med gets pharmacy access again