Human Bodies Cant go in the Enzymatic Reclaimer electric boogaloo

[Vulwin_Gilran]

ITS ME AGAIN WITH THIS, since there were other cloning changes around the time when i suggested this last time I figured once the waters settled in this area a bit it would be a better time to get some feedback on this again!

i think it would be good for the enzymatic reclaimer to only accept human bodies (dead or alive) when emagged:

1. would cause medical to engage with other departments to find a method of disposing bodies such as giving them to the chaplain to cremate or even giving them to the chef. Or even just SPACING them, but its still something which can be found.

2. a build up of corpses in the morgue is good for some antagonists like wraiths, changelings, and vampires. Which makes it a good place to raid.

3. makes the morgue a place that is actually frequently used, since you WILL be storing corpses there.

4. also means less easy biomatter recycling, meaning medical may run out of genetics monkeys if they rely on them for biomass, which could prompt them to reach out to other departments to source biomass (botany, chem, cargo). 

5. Might actually make SR more viable over cloning, as the inability to grind corpses would cause there to be less easy biomass (as mentioned in 4) meaning cloning takes longer to refuel and is more resource intensive

I am interested in hearing thoughts on this!

[GARGATHUGANOKSREVENG]

I don't think most people would like this change but I'd like to see how it plays out. Keeping embalmed corpses in the morgue can be helpful and there's a much easier way to refill the cloner biomatter than using bodies.

[Emimiyu]

My point against this idea :

1. Removing one of tool to "round remove corpse" is not really great for antagonist.
   
2. It doesn't pinpoint the exact issue why people don't use morgue. First, dragging corpses to the morgue is slow and take time. The usual reason why bodies are in morgue are borgification, because most maps have morgues nearer to robotics than robotics to cloning. Secondly, easier to strip bodies.
   
3. If you are selling the idea to make it "easier" for changeling and vampire to collect more points, it tends to promote cheesier way of avoiding harm to the crew and make antag less likely to attack crew, especially for getting stronger so that you can have more advantages. See NPC human being unable to be consumed for non human antag.
   

I would rather suggest :

1. A more effective way to ger corpses to the morgue. Ie. Put morgue chute in cloning.
   
2. Limit how many human bodies can be put inside reclaimer. Why is it still accepting biomats over 100%
   
3. Probably, not to hide eject button on right click menu.
   
4. Giving chaplain easier access to the morgue. They spawn with one yet they still have to pass through medical doors.
   

[Ikea]

To clarify I don't feel super strongly about this change, I don't think the game would be super worse with this change. That being said I've stated similar on discord but to repeat here, I just really question the points of this change.

For example, would cooperation for corpse disposal happen or even be desirable in the current game state. Like why would medical not just stuff more into a single unit or also is the chaplain dragging a few corpses or even more human burgers by non antags on the roleplay server desirable. I think there's design space for neat stuff with corpse utilization however this change does not add that.

I also don't see how making the morgue more frequently used and more enticing to raid is an upside. It not being frequently used makes it nice for human antags to do crime in, and considering it's generally the least engaging with the crew way of generating points and it's already a decent strategy that I don't think needs a buff, it being more powerful for non human ones feels like a downside. This to me is the biggest reason why I'm against the change.

Cooperation is I think potentially neat and I think it's the strongest point this has but cooperation works best both ways and I think in practice the "meta" will be either buy viscerite from fabs or make strange reagent in house because botany doesn't want to make synthflesh again because they don't find it to be fun. In general imo cooperation that isn't fun for both sides isn't going to happen and I don't think this fits that criteria unfortunately.

[Vulwin_Gilran]

The issue of why the morgue rarely ever gets used is because all bodies, usually unless the doctors are not immediately told otherwise by someone, get funneled directly into the reclaimer. and saying that moving the bodies too slow isnt a good reason, the morgue is full of body bags which make moving bodies + any personal belongings they have with them incredibly easy. and a few stations even have a morgue chute directly outside the medical doors for corpses to be put in, which still gets barely any use (for actual corpses and not just people breaking in).

Plus i dont know what you are saying about most stations the morgue being closer to robotics than cloning is, there is like 1-2 stations i can see where that is the case, then far more are either equal distance or cloning is closer to the morgue

and the difference between stealing morgued corpses and eating from an npc is you actually have the chance of getting caught.

[Egregorious]

I'm for this, bodies are an inconvenience that are given a far too convenient answer. If the majority of game design is basically introducing problems for the player to solve on their way to a goal and medical's goal is to keep people healthy, then a buildup of miasma-spouting bodies is a successfully designed problem that is worth solving, and that's gameplay right there. I definitely think there's more design space to work with if this problem were able to be expanded upon instead of being so heavily and readily trivialised.

Similar issue with artlab ejector in my opinion but that's neither here nor there.

[Lord_earthfire]

Like the last time this came up, im all for this.

Bodies almost make up most of the biomass of a clone. This makes one of the main points of upkeep for cloning, biomass, a neglectable thing.

[GARGATHUGANOKSREVENG]

Like why would medical not just stuff more into a single unit or also is the chaplain dragging a few corpses or even more human burgers by non antags on the roleplay server desirable.

Where else are they supposed to get food from?

[Kotlol]

We been trying to make cloning less of a be all heal all with defects and such. Now you want to make the most annoying part of cloning more annoying?

As much I would like to have more reasons to use morgues and such. I do not think THIS is the way.
If we are gonna do this... we need to streamline morguing not just by adding chutes. But by adding other stuff too.

So what needs changing in my opinion?
- Ashes from the incinerator count as biomass just very little. (Gives chaplain something to do then just burn changelings)
- Device to maintain corpses. (We dont need people going around with ferm/needles, have a way for janitors/sec/medics to do it on the fly)
- Make ORGANS the way to go (I said this a million times, cut open the corpses put it in as bio matter insted)
- Device to strip corpse completely. (After all that's what you are removing from the reclaimer, have a devices that strips a corpses for you and puts stuff in a crate.)

[Cropsey]

The organs as acceptable biomass idea sounds much better. Gives a use for the morgue too.

[JOELED]

I'd really love this change

[GARGATHUGANOKSREVENG]

We been trying to make cloning less of a be all heal all with defects and such. Now you want to make the most annoying part of cloning more annoying?

As much I would like to have more reasons to use morgues and such. I do not think THIS is the way.
If we are gonna do this... we need to streamline morguing not just by adding chutes. But by adding other stuff too.

So what needs changing in my opinion?
- Ashes from the incinerator count as biomass just very little. (Gives chaplain something to do then just burn changelings)
- Device to maintain corpses. (We dont need people going around with ferm/needles, have a way for janitors/sec/medics to do it on the fly)
- Make ORGANS the way to go (I said this a million times, cut open the corpses put it in as bio matter insted)
- Device to strip corpse completely. (After all that's what you are removing from the reclaimer, have a devices that strips a corpses for you and puts stuff in a crate.)

Ashes from the incinerator are probably identical to ashes from any other burnt object in the code and that doesn't seem to solve your "annoying part of cloning" problem, it seems even more tedious and pretty negligible.

You can make embalming fluid incredibly easily if you have access to a chemical dispenser and can just splash your beaker against a corpse to stop it from rotting, I assume that's what you mean by "maintain corpses"

Organs can already be reclaimed and I can't parse it from the code because it's written pretty confusingly but I always assumed a full set of human organs would produce more biomatter than a human corpse anyways but I have no proof for that.

I agree on making it faster to strip corpses though. I don't think you should need a device to do it, I think it should just be instant to remove items from corpses. Especially with the new changeling bodyswapping testmerge thing.



I don't know why so many people think gaining biomatter is annoying when you can pour blood into the cloning pod and get twice as much biomatter for it. I don't think you even need an enzymatic reclaimer to have a fully functioning cloning lab

[Drunkangel]

I like this idea! It'd be neat and I could imagine chaplains getting more space to do things like send off and help manage bodies (which is good) but also gives people more chance to work with, preserve, examine and dissect bodies. Crew working together can be a lot of fun, medical having more reliance on other departments is good. The morgue getting more use would be good.

[BadShot]

4. also means less easy biomatter recycling, meaning medical may run out of genetics monkeys if they rely on them for biomass, which could prompt them to reach out to other departments to source biomass (botany, chem, cargo). 

Or mining for viscirite (martian meat), which was its original intended purpose iirc.

Also, if this does happen, make a way to quickly strip corpses at least, cause one of the big benefits of the reclaimer is it auto strips the body for easy equip by the cloned player (unless it got emagged)

[Ikea]

Upon further thought I think the biggest implication of this change is it becomes significantly harder for people who aren't doctors to clone people as most sources of nearby biomass need a lot more access. This means when times get tough it's harder for non doctors to focus on cloning to help. Unsure how to feel about this