Cyberorgan wear and repair

[WyrdDoe]

Since some of the changes proposed here needed clarifying, I've written up an addendum to flesh out the proposal and lay out what I think are appropriate trait point costs for cyberorgans as traits.

All cyberorgans' durability doubled to 200, at the cost of needing to get them repaired, a surgical procedure.
When below 100 health, chat starts throwing up red messages and dinging you with little bits of damage here and there, like a lighter version of having foreign objects.
When below 50 health, the chat messages get scarier as major malfunctions set in.

Tentative list of symptoms, severe symptoms set somewhat according to the benefit of a functional cyberorgan, with more beneficial organs having worse side effects when breaking.

Cyberheart
Minor damage: Alarming pinching sensations in the chest, heart racing, occasional harsh beeps.
Major damage: Frequent harsh beeping, heart lurching in the chest, occasional electric jolts and micro-stuns

Cyberlungs
Minor damage: Unpleasant clattering and whirring in the chest, taste of plastic
Major damage: Shortness of breath, gasping, loud grating in the chest, taste of burnt plastic

Cyberstomach
Minor damage: Stomachache. Unpleasant gurgling sounds.
Major damage: Vomiting. Small amounts of hydrochloric acid leak into the bloodstream.

Cyberintestines
Minor damage: Twinges of abdominal pain.
Major damage: Severe abdominal pain. Small amounts of toxin leak into the blood.

Cyberliver
Minor damage: Abdominal pain, itching, occasional shrill beep.
Major damage: Frequent shrill beep, charcoal leaking into the blood, potentially blocking or absorbing other medicinal reagents.

Cyberpancreas
Minor damage: Jitteriness, agitation, occasional bleeps
Major damage: Frequent bleeps, small amounts of acetone and chlorine leak into the blood

Cyberkidney
Minor damage: Aching in the upper abdomen, frothy gurgling
Major damage: Stinging sensation in the upper abdomen, small amounts of iodine leak into the blood

Cyberspleen
Minor damage: Aching muscles, small amounts of iron leak into the blood
Major damage: Produces blood constantly, causing hypertension, larger amounts of iron leak into the blood

Cyberappendix
Minor damage: Feelings of insignificance, a chemical taste in the mouth.
Major damage: Leaks salbutamol constantly, risking lungrot if exposed to miasma.
- Notably, the way the cyberappendix currently depletes its durability with use might need to either be reworked, or else the doubled health and damage thresholds for the cyberappendix should be tabled.

Tentative list of trait point costs, priced somewhat in line with other traits that serve a similar function, or opposite traits that would counteract them. Note that round-start cyberorgans will be running at the default clock speed, so organs that provide no benefit unless over/underclocked won't factor that into the cost.

Cyberheart (-2)/(-3) Athletic is the closest equivalent, athletic provides 20 max stamina and +2 regen at the expense of taking 30% more brute damage, while cyberheart provides 40 max sttamina and +5 regen at the cost of electricity potentially causing it to "cease to function", according to the wiki. I'd like help looking at the code to determine what exactly this means, depending on how severe the drawbacks are cyberheart might cost more points or just be tabled as a round start trait.

Cyberlungs (-1)/(-2) There's not really a clear equivalent trait for cyberlungs, and the wiki doesn't give any numbers as to what "less oxygen, more CO2 and plasma" means. Setting this as a tentative maybe higher, maybe lower cost since while it'd make sense for career engineers to undergo elective cyberlung surgery before signing up, the benefits are somewhat situational.

Cyberstomach (-1) Seems to run in parallel with survivalist to me, honestly this one is weird. Unless you're planning your meals really carefully the benefit isn't that strong, but other traits will ding you with a point cost for similarly edge case benefits.

Cyberintestines (0) Default clock speed changes nothing.

Cyberliver (0) Seems comparable to career alcoholic, but without the slurred speech.

Cyberpancreas (-1) Comparable to a differently flavored lunchbox, albeit unable to handle the water need and not taking up an inventory slot.

Cyberkidneys (0) Default clock speed changes nothing except being immune to damage by alcohol, which I don't think is significant enough to warrant a trait point.

Cyberspleen (-1) Hemophilia gives 1 trait point, taking both hemophilia and cyberspleen would make you bleed out faster but also recover faster to compensate. Taking both being a net zero makes sense to me.

Cyberappendix (-1) Tricky to find an equivalent trait, but the little bit of medicinal chems it'll dispense over its lifespan definitely make this a non-zero value item.

[Agent reburG]

Cyber organs as a trait? 

Absolutely not.

You would just never see people come and get an upgrade, why? 
Because first, cyber organs are straight upgrades.
Your -1 Appendix, means immunity to the one event around it, that forces interaction with either medical or rather robotics and it also produces healing chems like, Salbutamol, Saline, Charcoal and Salic Acid which is better than the regeneration gene. 
Second, all that do care, already have them. 

But then, those that have them, would need repairs from the wear and give robotics something to do? 

What wear? 

You can go through an entire shift, without receiving any organ damage, since the sources are rare. 
And adding any wear would be just another nerf, making it just more useless.

[Kotlol]

The trait doesn't get you good cyber organs... but discount dan ones.
They will break.. they will not work as intended... they are cheap...

XD You get it. As a silly idea.

[Isane]

Cyber organs as a trait sounds like a great idea.

Currently very few people ever come in for an upgrade (I honestly almost never see it outside of the occasional 'drunkard captain gets a cyber liver'). Robotics is notorious for not having anything to do, so giving them more work by having them responsible for the upkeep and maintenance of people's cyberorgans is definitely a step in the right direction.

There's also precedent for traits providing immunity from events (Unionized), though I think it'd be cool if the appendicitis event instead caused your cyberappendix to require repair.

[Lord_earthfire]

The trait doesn't get you good cyber organs... but discount dan ones.
They will break.. they will not work as intended... they are cheap...

XD You get it. As a silly idea.

Actually, that is a cyberorgan-as-trait variant i actually like.

[Kotlol]

Thanks earthfire, I do think having a cyberorgan alone as a trait is like a -4 (similiar to pug) as it's THAT GOOD.

But if you want to have them mostly replaced or all.. why not insted of maintance. We make a new set of cyber organs that have flaws.
I'd work as an early round buff at best, but will have downsides you will have to deal with or replace them from the getgo.

At that point it's a fun trait off, early cyber organ use, but after like 10 mins... they will start failing you or some will not work as intended (other effects, not working)

That's the full on idea here. But I figured other people would find better ideas for it. It was litterly a 5 min think and I was like: "Eh throw it in"

[Agent reburG]

The trait doesn't get you good cyber organs... but discount dan ones.
They will break.. they will not work as intended... they are cheap...

XD You get it. As a silly idea.

Oh, this, this is good. 
No power gaming, but full gimmick. 
Don't just make them bad, but make them "weird" so they produce cheese inside you, or make you vomit if you eat anything not from Dan's

Robotics is notorious for not having anything to do, so giving them more work by having them responsible for the upkeep and maintenance of people's cyberorgans is definitely a step in the right direction.

There's also precedent for traits providing immunity from events (Unionized), though I think it'd be cool if the appendicitis event instead caused your cyberappendix to require repair.

More people with cyber organs, doesn't equal more work for robotics. 
There just is no wear, outside high caliber weapons and poisons, which isn't really wear. 
And you won't see your occasional drunk bold again, because he has a cyber liver from the get go. 

Comparing the polarity effect to, appendicitis is wild. 
One is: "Whoops bumped into someone" for two minutes, the other kills you in almost the same time without medical attention. 
And changing the cyber appendix like that just tails back to a flat out nerf.

[Ragemorrow]

The issue I see with some of the ideas in this thread is that ultimately, we're still playing a video game. I play exclusively roleplay; I make fun characters that I think would have features in the world, being able to be given cybereyes at round start was big for MAH LORE; But at the end of it all, it's a video game with mechanics that influence aspects outside of social interaction and neat backstories. Cyberorgans as they are right now are direct upgrades, yes. But they are often out competed by the only other system of "Direct Body Upgrades" in the game, that being genetics. Trying to make them more into "Side-Grades" makes me just wonder why anyone would take them or furthermore, invest time to go get them?

There's an argument for how Cyberorgans as they are right now are rather underwhelming because they're mostly just stat upgrades, and being noticeable but not really unique or overpowered, people don't often opt to dedicate the time to getting them. But if we were to introduce a wear and tear system to cyberorgans; that would introduce a whole bunch of "Nothing" in my opinion. You'd have minor upgrades that would slowly kill you. I think the belief that requiring maintenance would increase interaction with Robotics is honestly a lofty ideal. You'll see some increase, but I imagine it would simply become gamified.  By that, I mean. Go interact with your Geneticists; Even on the Roleplay Servers, you'll likely have an exchange of 5-20 Words with your Geneticist as they speedrun your genome. And doctors and surgeries often follow suite, with anesthesia and the actual act surgery being involved and damaging to the patient; Theres not a whole lot of interaction actually happening there. (Not to mention that unless you tie it to some sort of unique trait, which I dont think you would wanna do anyways, the repairs could be poached by equally bored doctors that wanna do surgery)

I don't think the idea is worthless; it's quite interesting. And I'd **love** to just have a cyberheart at roundstart, because the risk of EMPs is honestly so low its negligible; but as someone who regularly goes to robotics and gets robotic upgrades (which, once again, isn't even really a big bout of social interaction. Its almost always a transaction of "Roboticist gets to do something. I get buffs") I wonder about the actual mechanical impact of those organs having unique failures. Have you ever seen a heart be damaged? The likelihood is no. Because the only thing that Im aware can ACTUALLY damage the heart, is heart worms . And that doesnt even inflict *damage* on the heart, that just literally removes it. Hell, even people who actively die of heart failure, have their hearts at 100 health. Outside of Space Ricin, which the poisons sole effect is organ damage (and still doesnt effect the heart), most toxins just *do* damage. Not to organs, to the player. And you're so unlikely to suffer organ damage unless you're lit the hell up by a traitor, in which the side effects just prolong your treatment; assuming you survive to get it. And then theres a real arguement for "Just replace it with a new one" at that point, considering the system being suggested to repair it, is the exact same as the one to replace it.

Which is why I don't think making cyberorgans malfunction at lower health promotes much of anything really. It'd be a once-in-a-blue-moon circumstance that would undergo the same treatment of say an organic liver failing. Where you're brought in, undergo a quick surgery (while sometimes being unconscious) and sent out on your merry way.

Not a terrible idea, but not impactful in a meaningful way that incentives people to actually engage with the mechanic outside of just having a small buff at round start which *may, possibly, at some point under exact scenarios* require a quick in-and-out to the Roboticists. 

It's possible I'm misinterpreting the concept, but to add to the idea, rather than exclusively go "I dunno man". For organs to require maintenance and still being worth investing in I feel they would need to be significantly more unique and/or powerful, while having some way to stabilize the side effects for an extended amount of time outside of maintenance; such as a stabilizing agent (like neuropozyne from Dues Ex.) to prevent your upgrades from being the most obnoxious things ever under the rare circumstance that they do begin to fail. And ultimately, I think making them traits bogs down the trait menu, while the relatively rare circumstance of failure means roboticist won't see much increased traffic. However if cyberorgans had large unique increases, while requiring the occasional effort to counteract side effects, we might see an increase in traffic to robotics for people willing to try them out.

[Emimiyu]

Gotta agree with diacorme here. Kinda hard to bring the cyberorgan wear and tear idea if organ damage rarely even matter in game.

In game, organ damage are mostly either "minor bruised" or "Organ failure" because someone decide to buckshot captain two times.

[Gomp]

The whole reason you want this is to have robotic implants at roundstart right? Why not just make reskins of normal organs that are "robotic" in sprite and lore or whatever.

[Danger Noodle]

This is a pass from me, most every part of the suggestion is flawed.

Problem 1: Wear and tear is simply not very fun or engaging. Having your life be on a timer that if you don't attend to kills you or is incredibly annoying is not a fun experience and would make people even less likely to get replacement organs. Imagine having like a scene or generally going offstation to do stuff and then getting stunned every 10 seconds or "Oh Well My Heart Died. Oops!" because you physically couldn't go to robotics, you didn't get *killed* or even really interacted with anyone.

Problem 2: Making organs fixable with tools makes robotics less relevant. Currently to get an organ fixed you need medbay or, generally, specific meds. If you let them be fixed with tools then any old engineer or staffie can do the same surgery/repair anywhere on the map, no visit needed.

Problem 3: While not engaging cybernetics are really good. Cyberspleens and cyberappendixes are incredibly powerful passive buffs, the others are also very potent or at least nice to have. Problem 1 and 2 form a catch 22, if you make healing cybernetics too cumbersome people will get them even less than they do now, if it's too easy to fix them robotics might have even less to do since the gamers that would get cyberorgans just get them roundstart instead and fix them on the go.

Robotics is in a bad spot, it has been for a while and realistically they need new content and expansions to what exists now, these types of changes are bandaids at best.

[WyrdDoe]

I'm pleased this thread is starting to garner some good faith responses.

Time for a confession, from a roleplayer.

This thread has in part been an attempt to negotiate with what I see as a fickle genie. To get something I must sacrifice something. The thing that I want is for cyberorgans to be integrated into the fiction more smoothly as a thing some people have, like robot arms, from roundstart, to be biomechanical without the gaping concessions to video gameiness. I felt sacrifices would have to be made, and saw an opportunity to generate some more gameplay for an underserved role. I think my suggestions are good, if in need of ironing out and refining, and there has been some effort here to that effect. But yes, my motivation from the beginning has been to make my blorbo a gross little biomechanical yucky girl.

I want white or black blood, I want medbay visits to be gruesome and strange, I want those rare EMP grenades to just fucking kill me. And it does not satisfy this desire to be showing up to robotics every round start to beg a roboticist already overwhelmed by a needy clutch of cyborgs to please do a real quick non-canon surgery to put my character back where she belongs in fiction. Frankly that makes me cringe.

I get a sense that this thread is winding down with a grimacing "thanks but no" from the community, and I'm taking that as gracefully as I can. To be honest I'm pretty bummed out and tired, so I'm just going to lay out my personal minimum for my satisfaction without censoring myself, even if this provokes some pushback.

- Some sort of roundstart trait or traits for biomechanical insides that at the least taints my blood black
- Posing an eyebrow raising challenge for medics to distinguish from other patients
- emps fuck me up

Any version of a biomechanical trait that fulfils these criteria at minimum would satisfy my personal druthers.