[PR] Hunger and Thirst Rework

[github_bot]

PULL REQUEST DETAILS




[feature][input wanted][add to wiki]
About the PR
Makes the Food and Drink system more reward based as opposed to punishing to make it classic friendly.
TLDR:
Debuff: Not on classic or 0% on RP
Low Buff: 25% Getting to 50% can be done with anything in the category EXCEPT reagents from vendor items, low nutrition ig
Medium Buff: 50% requires correct cooking time/serving temperature OR botany produce recipe
High Buff: 75% requires both of the previous

The buffs might be a bit too generous so far. Serving temperatures for the drinks would have a 10 degree error margin.

Debuff: As is
Low Buff: +5 health/ +2.5 stam regen (motive dependent)
Medium Buff +10 health / +5 stam regen
High Buff: +25 health + Healing Over Time / +10 stam regen + Healing Over Time

In depth: https://hackmd.io/QqBX0brLRY-3VjnDRW_E6A

Why's this needed?
Let's classic interact with this system, gives proper job demand to chef and bartender, and significant reasons to be interacting with botany and the ranch. Strengthens the gameplay loop of the Civilian department, makes the system more reward based. Adds unique ways to measure the quality of catering products.


Changelog

Code:

changelog
(u)Cheekybrdy
(*)Reworked food and drink and added them to classic, check the PR for more information.

PULL REQUEST DETAILS

[Mouse]

Food already has benefits.  Pretty damn good ones too.

[Waffleloffle]

A. you should specify thirst and hunger motives, instead of "food and drink" - foods (and chef minutiae) and drinks (and bartender minutiae) already exist on classic. phrasing it like this adds food and drink is disingenuous - what you are PRing is hunger and thirst

(at least, I think that's what you're doing?? I genuinely cannot tell. please be clearer about what you are actually making changes to with this)

B. on that note, really dislike the stratification between rp and classic here. not being able to apply knowledge of the system effectively between the two styles of play is Not Ideal

[Asterion0]

I can second that the weird differences between the RP/Classic percentages feels really weird and just. Not necessary? Like there's not much reason for it besides "oh well they have to be different", especially since RP is the one with the stricter requirements. As for the actual buffs, it's kinda underwhelming when you consider that it's already very possible to achieve the same effects with food/drinks that already exist.
IMO the issue with chef on classic isn't that it's mechanically underwhelming (A really good chef can make a bowl of "you become invincible when eating this" soup), but rather just people not wanting to rely on someone else to conveniently have food with the buff they want or wait for them to get the materials from botany and then cook the food with the buff they want.

[Lord_earthfire]

Turning it into buffs is absolutely unneeded. Food already got buffs, and severely good ones at that.

And the classic-playerbase don't dislike rp motives because of it being a penalty. They dislike it because it forces an action that is detracting from their "normal" gameplay. In this case eating/drinking.

[RSOD]

imo, the system doesn't need buffs and the error margins will probably end up either being incredibly lenient or unforgiving.
the difference between Classic and RP is also unneccessary, i don't understand why it should be different for the two servers

[cheekybrdy]

Its worth looking at https://forum.ss13.co/showthread.php?tid=23113, as its a previous attempt at directly porting the system over where I based this PR off of. What I gathered from that to make this rework is.

1. People actually don't mind the bartender and chef getting reasons to visit them

2. People HATE being punished for not doing it though

That's why the intent here is for a opt-in system which is only productive for classic, only having any reductive elements on RP.

Have made the thresholds into identical 25% intervals with 0% being the debuff threshold again on RP

[Frank_Stein]

If I'm remembering correctly, part of the design intent of motives like hunger and thirst was to create movement around the station and create situations for anatagonists to take advantage of

If a target needs to eat, they'll eventually have to use a vending machine or visit the bar, facilitating ambush tactics.

Personally speaking, I'd rather there were less mechanical differences between classic and role-play. It's true, people like the carrot more than the stick, so a system that rewards desired behavior will be more popular than one that punishes undesired behavior.

But, going back to the design intent, something that achieves the goal of giving an antag those opportunities would be best.
Take hygiene for example. Having to stop and take a shower or wash your clothes creates that opportunity by having you in a certain place for a certain amount of time. Alternatively, ignoring the system and becoming stinky could make you easier to track by smell for an antag.
Having to go eat puts you someplace, but not eating could make your stomach growl and give audio cues to where you are.

This achieves the goal of creating those opportunities along the scale of the motive, just in different ways

[cheekybrdy]

But, going back to the design intent, something that achieves the goal of giving an antag those opportunities would be best.

I will say that the antagonist feeding methods for these motives haven't been adjusted with caps, so they are rewarded by this system for doing those actions.

[LeahTheTech]

The net upshot of this change as written is basically buffing vending machine food? Since you could now get good food buffs just by being full, why would you ever go to the chef and get well prepared food when vending machine fries give the same effects?

I'm also not convinced by the concept of this being "only buffs" and therefore better to interact with. If you only get substantial buffs while you're full, you are de facto debuffed while you're not full and it will still feel like a chore you have to do.

[cheekybrdy]

The net upshot of this change as written is basically buffing vending machine food? Since you could now get good food buffs just by being full, why would you ever go to the chef and get well prepared food when vending machine fries give the same effects?

I'm also not convinced by the concept of this being "only buffs" and therefore better to interact with. If you only get substantial buffs while you're full, you are de facto debuffed while you're not full and it will still feel like a chore you have to do.

The last two buff thresholds are done by having the recipe require botany ingredients or having it cooked at the right time with both allowing the last buff threshold, making them impossible to be obtained from vending machine food. The idea of "if everyones buffed not having it is a debuff" is something that's I really gotta think of a solution to though.

[cheekybrdy]

Added it so vendor chemicals can't go above 25% now. (they couldn't go past 50% before anyway, this is just a further nerf to them cause bad nutrition from the food so bad its literally memed on in radio announcements)

[TrickyWolfer]

I'm probably the dumb one in this context, but like everyone said before me, I'd prefer classic hungerless so that I could focus on the mechanics more than having the need to trip to bar and kitchen every quick minutes due to the amount of things i do in a short minute (from an engineer perspective).

Classic is always a victim of incompetency (because everyone has the same mindset like me to just screw around). However, the reason why this hunger-thirst system works more in RP is because there is a guaranteed level of competency demanded, henceforth you can guarantee buffs on display to make up with the things you cannot normally do in RP (i.e. tiding and just breaking and entering to get certain items to buff yourself without solid reason). You can also still benefit from the current case where food would still give you buffs depending on the effects, and this time without the actual need of keeping level of hunger above a certain point in classic.

Let botany mess with their new recipe or get ranchers to grow time chickens. Classic (in my eyes) is always a place to experiment and a more laid-back experience, but do the main thing to test the limits in RP. Cool merge idea, however currently sounds a bit unecessary

[Lefinch]

 hunger-thirst system works more in RP is because there is a guaranteed level of competency demanded, henceforth you can guarantee buffs on display to make up with the things you cannot normally do in RP (i.e. tiding and just breaking and entering to get certain items to buff yourself without solid reason). You can also still benefit from the current case where food would still give you buffs depending on the effects, and this time without the actual need of keeping level of hunger above a certain point in classic.

Everything else aside as I don't have a huge opinion on this PR.: I must be missing something here (which is very likely) because this entire section threw me for a loop. Guaranteed competency in RP? Guaranteed incompetency in classic? In my entirely anecdotal experience there is absolutely no guarantee of either in classic or RP: My shift yesterday was watching the chef cook quality ???? gruel by design the entire round, my last classic game before that (aside from the one where I was a clown nukie, long story) someone was making immortality cocoa beans. It -really- varies because of new players, people switching departments, or just confluence of events.

I'm mostly replying because I want to double check this is what you mean and if it is: strongly advise this is neither the practical reality nor something I want people panicking about on RP servers: you absolutely do not need to be competent. Be that shitty cook. Sure, you've gotta act like you wanna keep your job, but that doesn't mean you have to be -good- at it. Nor do I think "expecting" things from departments is in general a good road to go down: That's what used to lead to people complaining genetics didn't sort out their mildly mutated roll quick enough or that they didn't get puricloned properly. Or a better recent example is well: yelling at some newbee chef/chef doing a gimmick because they won't give you the special food buff you want. It's a collaborative game sure and it's fun when we get things done together but "Guaranteed" is just not true. Hell, the variation between rounds is part of the fun. Sometimes nobody has a clue what they're doing and it's a giant disaster!

Again, maybe you mean something completely different, so no worries if you do, but had to address what felt like just a wild thing to state.

[TrickyWolfer]

 hunger-thirst system works more in RP is because there is a guaranteed level of competency demanded, henceforth you can guarantee buffs on display to make up with the things you cannot normally do in RP (i.e. tiding and just breaking and entering to get certain items to buff yourself without solid reason). You can also still benefit from the current case where food would still give you buffs depending on the effects, and this time without the actual need of keeping level of hunger above a certain point in classic.

Everything else aside as I don't have a huge opinion on this PR.: I must be missing something here (which is very likely) because this entire section threw me for a loop. Guaranteed competency in RP? Guaranteed incompetency in classic? In my entirely anecdotal experience there is absolutely no guarantee of either in classic or RP: My shift yesterday was watching the chef cook quality ???? gruel by design the entire round, my last classic game before that (aside from the one where I was a clown nukie, long story) someone was making immortality cocoa beans. It -really- varies because of new players, people switching departments, or just confluence of events.

I'm mostly replying because I want to double check this is what you mean and if it is: strongly advise this is neither the practical reality nor something I want people panicking about on RP servers: you absolutely do not need to be competent. Be that shitty cook. Sure, you've gotta act like you wanna keep your job, but that doesn't mean you have to be -good- at it. Nor do I think "expecting" things from departments is in general a good road to go down: That's what used to lead to people complaining genetics didn't sort out their mildly mutated roll quick enough or that they didn't get puricloned properly. Or a better recent example is well: yelling at some newbee chef/chef doing a gimmick because they won't give you the special food buff you want. It's a collaborative game sure and it's fun when we get things done together but "Guaranteed" is just not true. Hell, the variation between rounds is part of the fun. Sometimes nobody has a clue what they're doing and it's a giant disaster!

Again, maybe you mean something completely different, so no worries if you do, but had to address what felt like just a wild thing to state.

Oh nonono, what I meant in competency is that "whether people do their actual job or not", so it's a pretty low standard and technically following what you just described. My personal history between recent classic and RP is somehow wildly different; In Classic, you'd see more of the loose-form type gameplay whereas RP people usually stick into their own lane (most probably due to high-pop). Other day I got a chaplain broke into mining in classic when I latejoined, shrimply making best armour before starting to run traitor. In RP, most often than not even though the server is low pop, I do not think that even antags would do some wildly-different cross-wing gameplay like this (the lowest i've been was just me latejoining and an antag det, and hey! The det was really playing into it without the need of breaking to other wings).

Rounding that back, since (usually, most often than not) people in classic wants to focus solely on the environmental gameplay of ss13, what I meant that in a more mechanic-based round, hunger and thirst (like stated before) would probably be more of a detriment. In classic, people tend to focus on the mechanic gameplay of ss13 than socializing like RP (so they're also less inclined to ask other wings for help); That could both be a bad and good thing, but that's beyond the thread. The constant chaos in classic would also need to be taken into account, and getting thirst-hunger going on while getting chased by singuloose and hyperbuffed mindhacked captain that broke into genetics, all the while sec is probably busy getting bigger guns by mining or azoning doesn't sound too enticing.