Emagging a borg should emag it's limbs

[Silent Majority]

Now that emaggable limbs are a thing, I wanted to suggest that an emagged borgs limbs become emagged as well.

This is a small but impactful thing which i feel would further highlight the fact that an emagged borg isnt "free" its "broken". The haywire cyborg randomly swinging its arms around or trying to health scan someone only to then chain saw them i feel is a better "aesthetic".

This could encourage more interaction before emagging, like mindhacks.

Further, it adds increased value to syndicate robotics frames since not only will they not be visible they'll also be more quiet and more efficient.

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In addendun: the center arm should remain unemagged

[Chasu]

Good idea imo, EMAGs can cause a lot of trouble in a short time, and I like that emagged machines are broken instead of "unlocked"/improved. If someone wants evil robots, they should use the proper tools (laws/syndie frame/borger). I'm not a big fan of the middle arm still being fully functional, but I get the thought behind it.

[Carton]

I would support this change, although I would still prefer the proposed change that emagged borgs would get random laws rather than none, although that change may have stalled? I'm unsure what happened to it.

Still, I think this is a simple but effective way to make emagged borgs non optimal since an emagged borg that simply decides to flee (especially if they immediately go disassemble the robotics console) is incredibly difficult and often frustrating to deal with at present, and the opportunity to be a powerful antag with no consequences provides incentive for borgs to seek out/allow themselves to be emagged.

[Lefinch]

I like the idea, but it also I would argue vastly changes one of the major game and roleplay dynamics for both antags and a significant group of people. I do not think this is one of those "huh that makes sense and is cool" changes when you are fundamentally going from "Emags are a gamble for antags and lawlessness for the borg, and -anything- could happen" to "Everyone has an easy excuse and even higher visibility for all borgs emagged to get a validating"

Further, I posit that it doesn't actually fit the EMAG pattern, wherin an emag's effects are usually visually distinct but not painfully apparent. Doors are jammed open, but there might be other reasons for that. The QM console looks fine until you look at bit harder. Borgs look fine unless you happen to notice that little spark/odd behaviour. Beepsky does not rotate around the map screaming, they just spark up and go nutty when spotting someone.

However, I think the idea in of itself is pretty fun, and fun is good. My compromise would be a double-emagged borg does this. Two slaps and that thing's off to the races. This meets your aesthetic argument while not treading into an area that brings a fundamental change. If we -want- that change, that's a different discussion I feel like needs to be an up front thing and the main subject of discussion.

[JOELED]

I would support this change, although I would still prefer the proposed change that emagged borgs would get random laws rather than none, although that change may have stalled? I'm unsure what happened to it.

I'm pretty sure it stalled because it required a gargantuan code refactor last I heard

[Silent Majority]

I like the idea, but it also I would argue vastly changes one of the major game and roleplay dynamics for both antags and a significant group of people. I do not think this is one of those "huh that makes sense and is cool" changes when you are fundamentally going from "Emags are a gamble for antags and lawlessness for the borg, and -anything- could happen" to "Everyone has an easy excuse and even higher visibility for all borgs emagged to get a validating"

Further, I posit that it doesn't actually fit the EMAG pattern, wherin an emag's effects are usually visually distinct but not painfully apparent. Doors are jammed open, but there might be other reasons for that. The QM console looks fine until you look at bit harder. Borgs look fine unless you happen to notice that little spark/odd behaviour. Beepsky does not rotate around the map screaming, they just spark up and go nutty when spotting someone.

However, I think the idea in of itself is pretty fun, and fun is good. My compromise would be a double-emagged borg does this. Two slaps and that thing's off to the races. This meets your aesthetic argument while not treading into an area that brings a fundamental change. If we -want- that change, that's a different discussion I feel like needs to be an up front thing and the main subject of discussion.

To be fair confirming a door had been emagged physically takes 1 click of the most commonly avallable tool where as emagged borgs can only be physically confirmed via a check with a specific robotics tool that doesn't start play in existance and requires an ID only 3 jobs have by default, 2 of which are command.

I think a simpler compromise for the "lawless and mostly undetedtable perfectly efficient antag production" item would be some kinds jailbreak kit that requires the borg to be unlocked, or possibly a roboticist/command only "omnimodule" that could be installed on a borg to make them lawless with no malfunction.

The emag is still ultimately supposed to be somwthing that brute force breaks something. I dont think the current use represents that on borgs at all

[Lefinch]

In very short, I think its fine. I could point out things like the QM console for varied emag functionality, the visual clue for borgs akin to the door. However, given that your reply directly brings up "lawless and mostly undetectable perfectly efficient antag production" I compare it to the original statement of "better aesthetic" and "This is a small but impactful thing" and find contradiction, especially on the "Small" part. That feels like discussing.

I think this is actually something if felt strong about is actually a bigger discussion about the EMAG on Borgs, not an idea for an alternative. I really like the idea itself again, but I think it's cart-before-horsing the bigger discussion here: How do people feel about the EMAG and Borgs.

A cool idea is great but like I said before: That's a big change for two groups of people and I wouldn't want to gloss over that for a cool idea I like. So I threw out a different alternative that side-steps the interaction with the original emag functionality because you said it was an aesthetic thing, but it appears there's more to this than that.

There's a lot of borg players either irregularly or regularly, and a lot of people who use this this exact methodology for their gimmicks, and I think it's probably worth discussing that first before changing it for any idea. However however, as it's not really something I do much hopefully as people discuss it here it might turn out people might agree that the current functionality doesn't work out, and that's great because we have a nice alternative idea ready to go.

[Silent Majority]

Thata also fair. My original idea has primarily been for aesthetic. Balance started being brought up so i wanted to respond with my own ideas on balance.

I think my issue with the idea if a double emag is it wouldn't be used much. And make it seem more like "this is a punishment " when i dont fundamentally think it should be viewed as a punishment just "its broken".

I don't like the idea if an emag being viewed as "worse" then a mindhack. Which i feel making it a deliberate thing it would be.

[Lefinch]

Thata also fair. My original idea has primarily been for aesthetic. Balance started being brought up so i wanted to respond with my own ideas on balance.

I think my issue with the idea if a double emag is it wouldn't be used much. And make it seem more like "this is a punishment " when i dont fundamentally think it should be viewed as a punishment just "its broken".

I don't like the idea if an emag being viewed as "worse" then a mindhack. Which i feel making it a deliberate thing it would be.

Yeah speaking to the balance I actually tend to agree myself in that it's always felt like a curiously optimised result of emagging a borg. Sure, the cyborg could turn around and beat you silly as well, but taking away and transferring the concept to a different device and making the emag's function purely a chaos-causer could work, though then I feel like it would be used primarily on borgs as a fairly annoying thing that requires a roboticist or roboticist stand-in to fix from one tap and that doesn't feel quite right either, wheras right now THEORETICALLY an emag doesn't necessarily interrupt the flow for the borg, though that in of itself never sits right with some players including myself that feel like you'd naturally be a bit nervous of a completely lawless borg going around. 

It's just a big change. I'm hoping we get some input here from some borg regulars (as well as anyone who uses the emag this way regularly) because I like the idea but don't really have a strong handle on how that being diverted to another tool or removed completely going down. As you've stated, there exists methods to get the equivalent version of a mindhack for cyborgs (which while it has some drawbacks of being reversible and detectable when you fiddle a law rack or re-link cyborgs to a different one or use syndicate frames, all come with powerful positives in their favour too that I feel balances out) but I also get the sense this is a strong selling point for the EMAG even if it's not really a reason I tend to use it for.

[PatriciaTime]

It just seems unfun for the borg, if your arms are malfunctioning all you could really accomplish would be attacking people or begging a hopefully alive and available roboticist to fix you.

[pyrotekniks]

i've only been playing on goon for about 2 months now, but i've been maining borg for about a month. i think emagging making our limbs go haywire would be interesting, but maybe would be better as a chance of it happening with it? not a chance once the emag is on, but when it's being applied a random chance of the emag short circuiting our limbs. i think it could bring some funny instances of a borg going haywire all of a sudden, and give us a reason to actually want to go get it fixed instead of just the fear of being shut off.