Let's talk about the Detective

[Frank_Stein]

I kinda like the idea of Detective needing to load each bullet individually. I think it opens the door to custom loads, or specialized ammo like tracker implants rounds or such for it.

Let them rotate the cylinder by hand

[Carton]

I kinda like the idea of Detective needing to load each bullet individually. I think it opens the door to custom loads, or specialized ammo like tracker implants rounds or such for it.

Let them rotate the cylinder by hand

I wouldn't mind this, but wouldn't it require a significant amount of rework of how ammunition works? That would pair really nicely with the Colt though, it'd make it even more authentic. Though it would be a litle weird for the detective to not have speed loaders in 2053. Of course, it's no weirder than them using a revolver in 2053.

[klushy225]

if coolstation can do it, i'm sure we can too! An ammo rework would be sick

[Carton]

if coolstation can do it, i'm sure we can too! An ammo rework would be sick

I believe TDHooligan had some plans for an Ammo rework, but I'm not sure where they were on that. It would be very nice to see though, I'd love the ability to single load rounds into revolvers or shotguns, or mix them in magazines and such, not just for this with the detective revolver but just because it would be nice for guns in general.

[b0opy]

I kinda like the idea of Detective needing to load each bullet individually. I think it opens the door to custom loads, or specialized ammo like tracker implants rounds or such for it.

Let them rotate the cylinder by hand

.38 speedloaders can now no longer be reloaded once you use them, the speedloader drops to the ground along with spent bullet casings. If you reload with unused ammo still in the gun, it produces loose bullets instead of a full speedloader! loose bullets have a short delay before they reload into the gun! This delay is reduced if you use the colt (maybe let it use exclusively loose bullets for acccuracy)

[Lord_earthfire]

Well, when the secoff mindshield discussion came people pointed that other jobs will get targeted instead....

Then we had the captain mindshield discussion where people pointed out that this will change the target.

Next, we had a PR which proposed a massive det nerf partially because of... you guessed it, them being the next mindhack target.

Now, i am not a fan of slippery slopes, because they very often are bullshit, but damn, that is one of the few times i see one actually going down.

Maybe we should talk about the direction we want to go with the balance of sec in general.

[klushy225]

That's a good point. Security is in an odd spot, and these bandaid fixes we're seeing proposed are simply dancing around the larger balance and role of security discussion that needs to be had. At the moment, security has too many safety nets in my opinion. It's nearly impossible to kill off a security officer, as they have armor, a disk, a quick alert, a mindshield, a health implant, and likely a clone scan. We need to stop seeing security as this force that HAS to triumph over the antagonists every time, and let some things stay weak. This is coming from someone who plays nearly only security as well. However, this is more fit for a separate thread.

Regarding the detective itself, I think the detective in its current state is too intertwined with security proper. I like the idea of the detective being some third party agent who loosely cooperates with security. The detective should be shady, and somewhat of a loose cannon rather than a tool for the HoS to ask to scan things. The detective needs more autonomy from security, in my opinion.

[Carton]

Well, when the secoff mindshield discussion came people pointed that other jobs will get targeted instead....

Then we had the captain mindshield discussion where people pointed out that this will change the target.

Next, we had a PR which proposed a massive det nerf partially because of... you guessed it, them being the next mindhack target.

Now, i am not a fan of slippery slopes, because they very often are bullshit, but damn, that is one of the few times i see one actually going down.

Maybe we should talk about the direction we want to go with the balance of sec in general.

Realistically, it's less of the roles being balanced... and more of a problem with the mindhack itself. People are always going to target the role that gives them the biggest advantage, and the only way to stop that is either:
- Give pretty much every role mindshields, which is obviously flawed.
- Nerf every non-mindshielded role into the ground until none give you an advantage to mindhack. Which would absolutely ruin the mindhack as a concept, as well as most of the roles losing their most fun and useful parts.
- Give the mindhack itself a balance change of some kind. 
All of which is better suited for further discussion in another thread.

Regarding the detective itself, I think the detective in its current state is too intertwined with security proper. I like the idea of the detective being some third party agent who loosely cooperates with security. The detective should be shady, and somewhat of a loose cannon rather than a tool for the HoS to ask to scan things. The detective needs more autonomy from security, in my opinion.

This I heavily disagree with, as it would pretty much give security free reign to simply trample over the detective and do all forensics themselves, which is a problem we already face regularly, and does not need exacerbating. Additionally, I'm unsure what real mechanical changes we can actually make to remove detective from security while keeping the role functional, aside from maybe renaming it to "Private Investigator" or something of the like.

Additionally, if we made detective the only person able to do comprehensive forensics (perhaps in an attempt to mitigate the earlier problem I mentioned), and people regularly chose not to co-operate with security, it would completely kneecap security when it comes to dealing with thefts and stealth, which would trivialize parts of antag gameplay and make security gameplay much more frustrating. 

I honestly believe what detective needs is a revamp of forensics. Perhaps some more electronic evidence in certain systems like the ID computer, or something to incentivize further use of luminol (I know many detectives, especially new detective players, never end up actually using it) or other remaining evidence to make it easier to locate a crime scene.

[KikiMofo]

What if the detective's revolver box could only be opened by:
-Armory being authed
-Anyone with armory access(the HoS)
-An Emag(permanently unlocking)

EDIT: Pull request for this change can be found here: https://github.com/goonstation/goonstation/pull/21531, please discuss balance thoughts in this thread though.

In the old days only the detective could use the revolver. Then it was changed to only people wearing detectives outfit could use the revolver. Then it was changed to everyone could use the revolver.

[mralexs]

That's a good point. Security is in an odd spot, and these bandaid fixes we're seeing proposed are simply dancing around the larger balance and role of security discussion that needs to be had. At the moment, security has too many safety nets in my opinion. It's nearly impossible to kill off a security officer, as they have armor, a disk, a quick alert, a mindshield, a health implant, and likely a clone scan. We need to stop seeing security as this force that HAS to triumph over the antagonists every time, and let some things stay weak. This is coming from someone who plays nearly only security as well. However, this is more fit for a separate thread.

Regarding the detective itself, I think the detective in its current state is too intertwined with security proper. I like the idea of the detective being some third party agent who loosely cooperates with security. The detective should be shady, and somewhat of a loose cannon rather than a tool for the HoS to ask to scan things. The detective needs more autonomy from security, in my opinion.

I think its more that power creep set in, people used to be able to rampage a LOT and several players were good enough at it that sec would automatically give up when they see they're an antag because they knew they couldn't win so sec was buffed to compensate. Instead of nerfing sec, why not buff antags? Or at least help them be harder to catch.

[Kotlol]

Buffing antags to fight security means standard staffy mcstafferson can't robust em anymore.

I'll be honest I am fine with this. Since I absolutely HATE vigilantism on RP. They don't get when an antag stuns another staffy with security right next to them, batoning the antag.. they think they are allowed to join in the fight.

Heck I once was security, about to head into a combat zone. Then a scientist with a fire extuingisher shoved me aside and ran in before me after I told them to stay back for their safety. They cited "Self defense" allowed them to and I was like: "They didn't attack you."
So giving them less reason to engage with antags is probably a good thing... since a lot of the times... they only get in the way of my shots and I have killed people as the detective on ACCIDENT cause they ran infront of me shooting an antag.
And I do love being yelled at cause the vigilante ran infront of me.. and getting shot.