Let's talk about the Detective

[JORJ949]

Currently (on classic at least) detective is played like a security officer but with lethals, I personally do not believe the detective should be played like this and should be encouraged to actually do detective work. I believe the detective should be brought closer to assistant than to officer with the gun being just a self defence tool rather than a method to go arrest antags. This "officer but with lethals" effect has caused detective to be one of the most popular mindhack targets because at least IMO its better than a secoff. I have had a few ideas to try change this, one of which I PRd:

1) Reduce the availability of lethal ammo. This forces detectives to more carefully consider when they can and cannot use lethal ammunition to encourage stunning to get away, rather than shooting to kill. (This is the one I PRd)

2) Remove the forensic scanner from the standard officer PDA. The forensic scanner on the PDA effectively makes the detective and utility token forensic scanners pointless because you can just scan your PDA to get a forensic analysis, this way an officer will have either had to buy a forensic scanner or call the detective over.

3) Give the detective some form of unique detective training to increase their effectiveness at solving crimes.

4) The nuclear option that I don't like: Give the detective a Mind protection implant.

I do not want to remove antag detectives, I do not want to remove the detectives gun, I just don't like how detective is treated like another officer loadout.

[Cal]

If you want Detective to be a real role and not a joke, I think more detailed forensics should be added, and not just "scan and hit up the PC" kinda shit.

A forensics lab where Medical generally used to have pathology would give them more to do, and have them work with Security a little more closely, I've played Mafia type games that have a role like Detective, where they're more proficient in examining bodies. Also, a forensics lab could be used as an alternate roleplay way to detect a changeling? Who knows. Good possibilities here.

Perhaps Detective should have "Detective training" that allows them to see whether someone was killed with a blunt or sharp weapon, maybe vials to let them collect blood samples, so on.

[Kotlol]

I am fine with making the detective more unique cause as I see them now...

They are bascially on the same level of access then Security Officers but with an own office and waaaaay more good tools.
Atleast when Security Officers had more acces, it forced the detective to be coming along with them. But now.. they are just "better sec officers" in my opinion.

Better weapons (just without a baton), better tools to do security (VR goggles, Det Hat, Scanner with range)

By making them different is a fine thing, but I still want security officers to have something "OVER" detectives. Since if we go "THIS ROUTE" ... Detective is just "the best security officer" and I do not think that was intended.
ANd while I am fine with them being better at solving crimes, I do not want to them to be "the best officer on the job"

So what would normal officers have over the detective?
Minus the Disk wich is the only thing they have over dets (you can put trackers on your stuff as a detective)
I got one small idea... Make security officers be more "in shape" by giving them more stamina? Or atleast something that will make the detective be more "willing" to work with security.

[JORJ949]

So what would normal officers have over the detective?

I lied in my original post, I would like to remove the detective's gun, but absolutely nobody will agree with me because its a key part of the role.

Currently what officer has over detective is as follows:
- Clone disk (Just get scanned)
- Security training trait, one of the effects being double cuff speed (very minor effects)
- Flashprot (ask for sechuds)
- Mindprotection health implant, specifically this sends death alerts to security on top of the normal medical staff
- Armor vest (ask for a vest)
- Utility tokens (mostly spent on donuts on classic, which is IMO the biggest difference, those donuts are really strong)

I would like to say giving them more stamina would be an insane buff, it makes them more resistant to stuns and allows them to keep up with, if not outpace an antag in a pursuit.

[Emimiyu]

It's conflicting with det being able to be antagonist. But...I don't like how mindhackable det is. You can't really send det to go investigate alone without some antags implanting them. It happens to me when an antag told me to investigate microbombs, and whoops, I am now mindhacked, time to give antag my stun revolver. Hey det, could you track down this antag with bloodtrak? Whoops, det came back as a mindhack.

It also limits the det's job of roaming around searching for clues, asking witness, if you can just implant them, then oh no, antag has stun now. Which kinda sucks on lowpop where the only sec is one secoff and a det.

Also, I like Cal's idea about the det training thing to see the cause of death by viewing. Something a secoff can't do with their PDA. Det is kinda useless when you can just tap your PDA on doors as secoff. If chaplain can get to see people last words, which is more revealing, det being able to see the cause of death easily should less be an issue. Something to fix det is to give them a job that secoff can't really do. Even on RP, det's kinda futile when a secoff would rather do everything on their own.

[Frank_Stein]

Perhaps Detective should have "Detective training" that allows them to see whether someone was killed with a blunt or sharp weapon, maybe vials to let them collect blood samples, so on.

I think that's generally a good direction to go job/role training, where extra information is provided on examination when it's relevant to their line of work. 

Very in line with a social deduction game that some people should have more information than others would.

[Lt487]

Maybe the stun bullets could do with some changes? Rather then just being a taser 2.0 make it more of something that makes it much harder to move/run when hit rather then just a full on stun. This is a really half baked idea but the concept would be that if det is alone stun bullets would only really allow det a free escape rather then a dead antag. Would make det a lot less of a officer 2.0 since you cant really detain antags as easy as a officer could and would encourage more finding who the antags are and informing sec. Though before such a change takes place det should get buffed with more tools to do said detective work as just a nerf to stun bullets would feel bad without getting anything else.

[Snoid]

the best idea i got to try and mitigate the overpowered gun issue is to lock dets gun behind armory access, but not in armory. like if det has a ONLY OPEN IF SHIT IS FUCKED drawer or something in their office and its unlocked via armory being unlocked + a key that only the det spawns with. in turn det should probably start with some other less insane tool to take down antags in a pinch. nothing as strong as a taser or baton but nothing thats hard countered by someone wearing funny sunglasses.

tho that does kinda retract from the standard detective-type look in fiction where they always have that gun, so maybe lock just the lethals behind that and nerf the stuns? iunno.

[Kotlol]

Currently what officer has over detective is as follows:
- Armor vest (ask for a vest)

Det has it's own armor with the det coat. 
"Though the coat does reduce damage from all types of bullets by a third and shaves off a bit of damage from melee attacks."

I am not sure how much different it is from an Armor vest.
But in combat. The Det seems to be able to fight on securities level. (Minus the shield they sometimes deploy
And in solving crimes has a super advantage. To me the Det is more capable... then 2 security officers. Especially since addictions do not bother them as much.

Anyway removing lethals from the start of the gun will nerf the antagonist detective. Wich isn't a huge deal since most of them can have lethals in their own ways.

But I prefer not nerfing anything of the detective (CEPT the detnet goggles, that's the only thing I want nerfed)
Otherwise the gun is fine since it can be hard countered better then tazers/batons.

[mralexs]

One minor thing I'd like to see with the Det gun is having to eject all the rounds/brass before reloading, like a real revolver, you can't really partially reload on the one the Det has irl

[KikiMofo]

There is only one detective. I don't think its too over powered compared to security.
That means there is only one detectives gun on station.

[Cal]

One minor thing I'd like to see with the Det gun is having to eject all the rounds/brass before reloading, like a real revolver, you can't really partially reload on the one the Det has irl

I like this, give them a bit of reload downtime. Maybe a second long action bar to dump the casings.

[8c2v]

I dunno how to reply (i now see theres a big reply button?? idk).

But I think having to actually RELOAD the gun would make it a lot.. cooler? Detectives can carry nearly as much ammo as they want, magdumping anyone. It doesn't matter if they miss, they can instantly switch to another cartridge.
If you made the detective have to open their gun to reload, or put it in 1 by 1, kinda like the newer gang weapons, It'd be much more of a hassle to actually shoot, you'd have to MANAGE your shots (This was something else george talked about, limiting det ammo) and you wouldn't be able to fire 7 cartridges with no draw backs.

[mralexs]

One minor thing I'd like to see with the Det gun is having to eject all the rounds/brass before reloading, like a real revolver, you can't really partially reload on the one the Det has irl

I like this, give them a bit of reload downtime. Maybe a second long action bar to dump the casings.

Well dumping the casings is REALLY fast, you just push the ejector and they ALL come out. I'm saying you can't really partially reload the thing without ejecting everything in the cylinder. My idea is that to reload, you click the revolver, the casings come out (or maybe a step where the cylinder swings open so you have to click twice?), THEN you load it. Another way you could change it is change how fast it fires, you can't really quickly fire a double action revolver because the trigger has to engage the hammer and the cylinder has to rotate. Right now the det's gun is just a 6 shot semi-auto pistol in terms of fire rate. Here's a video on it if you wanna look. (I may or may not be a gun nerd). Perhaps a part of the det training affects how fast and accurate a person is with the revolver, as presumably the det has practiced with their gun and knows how to use it well, unlike Johnnie McTraitorpants

[Kotlol]

Fair on the reload animation, I didn't like speedloading anyway. Felt unnatural.

Just giving them a reload bar of 1 second is more then enough!