Unify Classic and RP Sec accesses

[JOELED]

security does have a large portion of station access, but the station isnt the only place an antag can run off to. speaking from experience as someone who is mainly on rp, there are a Lot of traitors that utilize the listening outpost, and by extent, space.

I think you are describing a problem here. Because of far too excessive sec access, antags are pressured to do their shenanigans outside the station, at a place where they are unable to interact with crew .

I completely agree with this.  I've witnessed people on rp being frustrated a lot that any kind of antag gimmick or rp attempt can be shut down instantly by a secoff waltzing in -- I personally get "checked in on" by sec multiple times a round without being asked whenever I'm just doing nonantag bazaar stuff in toxins (sometimes with sec moving things around and taking things, which is frustrating in itself).  RP sec is overstaffed and bored most of the time, which I've come to understand a lot more now that I've been playing sec myself, but it definitely leads to secoffs "patrolling" just... inside every department they have access to.  I don't feel like that helps RP, and I don't feel like that is a healthy state for antagging.  People can already instantly and silently ping for secoff assistance with their PDA in their pocket, sec being able to just walk in and check in on things within department rooms without having any real reason to beyond having access is goofy.  I play on both classic and RP, and the difference feels palpable to me in terms of feeling comfortable doing bits and engaging with people inside of departments as an antag.

I'd be very interested in seeing this testmerged.  If it's really as terrible and game-ruining as people think, it can just be untestmerged.

[Chatauscours]

Hello there, as always pitching in to say that this is not the answer to the problem. Even though it might make the life of a part of the players on RP slightly better, security gameplay quality will go from hard to terrible, and HoSing will go from nightmarish to Dante must die.
HoSii also want to have fun and talk to people, and not just run around the entirety of the round opening doors.

Do keep in mind that there is a huge difference for sec between the relatively chill 30-40 pop rounds with respectful players on Sylvester, and the absolute hell that 70-80 pop Morty can become with self antags and everything else.
A staffie packetnerding in the tech storage shouldn't require a 5 minute wait until the captain/Hos frees themselves and opens the door, when the team is already overworked and spread thin.

All that said, do pls remove the RP secoff access from det office, because to hell with officers that steal gear from the det.

[JOELED]

Do keep in mind that there is a huge difference for sec between the relatively chill 30-40 pop rounds with respectful players on Sylvester, and the absolute hell that 70-80 pop Morty can become with self antags and everything else.
A staffie packetnerding in the tech storage shouldn't require a 5 minute wait until the captain/Hos frees themselves and opens the door, when the team is already overworked and spread thin.

I'm a little confused, because I don't think balance choices should be made based around rule breaking like that.  If people are self antagging, that should be ahelped and handled by admins, not by secoffs with AA.

[JORJ949]

I'd say the fact this has come up before, and both sides seem to have a point on it that maybe there's a problem here to resolve but that this particular method might not be the one.

Yeah, this is personally what I think. There definitely is a problem with chase times being too long sometimes when sec access meets an antag who’s ability does not allow them to get out of an area fast enough to shake off sec; however, the solution to this is not to nerf their access. Making doors the primary obstacle would just get really tiring for all involved since once sec gets that access back via getting an access upgrade from command or whatever method they use in round we go right back to the same old issue. The real issue here revolves around how current antag escape abilities are balanced. Ideally whatever solution is made is one that makes it so antags can end chases and leave their pursuers wondering “Where did they go?” not “I know where they went but there’s 50 doors I have to beg to be let through or get AA to go back to the old also frustrating status quo.”

Classic officers manage perfectly fine without the access and I rarely if ever see officers get additional access, the argument that HoS will become a glorified door-opener also does not apply IMO because again, this does not happen on classic and officers can hold their own, normally via "AI Door" over the security channel if they really need in.

[Azurnite]

I am not phased by differing access levels between Classic and RP. I've done enough of both to just know they're different play-styles all together with some similarities. I've very rarely seen access of RP sec offs get abused since medical access was removed. Even then RP has a specific rule on "Stay in your lane" which means if an officer is manning the engine despite there being 4 engineers right there, Ahelp it, and I feel abuse of access levels could easily just resolved with an Ahelp.

Ultimately, I am agreeing with Petey in that speculation doesn't add or take away anything on a topic that's been discussed to death. It'd be best to see how it plays out in practice for a period to give a trial run of it. There will be a nice advantage to this test since 3 is higher pop usually and 4 is low-mid so we can see how it feels in each bracket of pop.

[TemThrush]

Seeing as nearly every area RP officers would lose access to (besides Tech Storage) are small rooms in other departments, I'm really not sure why the "Door Opener Hos" is such a prominent concern that it's been mentioned several times. Yeah, that would definitely be annoying and unfun for the HOS, but these areas aren't open exclusively to the HOS. These are largely departments that have working staff in them, why would an officer immediately call the HOS over comms to sprint over here and open this door instead of asking someone who actually works in the department standing nearby? If no one's available from the department there will almost always be borgs, the AI, or hell even the Captain/HOP if you're desperate.

I'll probably type up something else later, but in the meantime I support this change, and I'd really like to see this test-merged. It's at least worth a try, if it sucks, then oh well! Now we know for sure instead of just theorizing about it.

[Sov]

RP sec access is a relic from the days of map locked Clarion and extremely low RP populations

I dont know if the current classic perms are necessarily a perfect fit but some reduction of access would be in line with the recent themes such as reduction of AI camera coverage that have been done recently

[Soleil]

I do possess the HoS beret but its been a while since I last played HoS, so I can't speak on the balance or chase side of things. Personally I just think Security Officers have too much access, they can waltz into your workplaces and I've had bad experiences both as an antag and nonantag with that. Sure you can say "yell at them, ahelp the bad eggs" and so on, but this has been a consistent issue I've had for years and years and I haven't stopped yelling or ahelping bad eggs. So that's my personal main reason on why I support this PR.

As for the "door opener HoS" issue, why are we ignoring Cyborgs or AI? Like sure the HoS can open doors, but the AI is infinitely easier contacted and infinitely easier able to open doors, and Cyborgs are often everywhere and sometimes even part of the Security team. Or they can just yell at other employees of the department to be let in to chase John Badguy. If they are evil and all the silicon are compromised, then that's going to suck absolutely, which is why..

I really think my compromise of Red Alert button giving temporary access back to Security is a really clean way to balance this. We already have the Radiation Storm Alert giving the entire crew temporary Maintenance access. We've already been wanting to make the Red Alert button more impactful, so why not give it more access to all of Security? It lets crew that is stuck in their homes realise something is going down, it lets the antags know the fuzz is on the way and it gives Security team a whole lot of access to go all out.

Also quick edit: All maps give Security insul gloves and tools, so they can hack in to Tech Storage to beat John Packetguy to death in the absolute worst case scenario!

[JORJ949]

I dont know if the current classic perms are necessarily a perfect fit 

I agree, but its a good starting point

[Glamurio]

I really think my compromise of Red Alert button giving temporary access back to Security is a really clean way to balance this. We already have the Radiation Storm Alert giving the entire crew temporary Maintenance access. We've already been wanting to make the Red Alert button more impactful, so why not give it more access to all of Security? It lets crew that is stuck in their homes realise something is going down, it lets the antags know the fuzz is on the way and it gives Security team a whole lot of access to go all out.

I agree that if we must change access on RP, the red alert ruling seems like a meet the middle approach I can accept. Sometimes RP gets really hectic on high pop and you just don't have the time for paperwork or waiting for someone to open a door, and when the red alert reflects that, I'm good with it.

Also quick edit: All maps give Security insul gloves and tools, so they can hack in to Tech Storage to beat John Packetguy to death in the absolute worst case scenario!

Really, really do not want for RP Security to normalize breaking into departments, not even a little bit.

[Soleil]

Also quick edit: All maps give Security insul gloves and tools, so they can hack in to Tech Storage to beat John Packetguy to death in the absolute worst case scenario!

Really, really do not want for RP Security to normalize breaking into departments, not even a little bit.

Oh yeah of course not, I just was pointing out that Security do get the tools they need to get into places in the absolute worst case scenario. Armory also has airlock breaching hammers, HoS has bigshot (HE or future assault laser), so those are 2 more tools that are available, though much less practical of course.

[Silent Majority]

I agree red alert giving near aa to sec clearance would be the "fix" for this. Could actually be a "ert" flag for id access.


My personal opinion is:

Security should be able to use their badge to open doors outside of their access. It should have a 5 to 10 second wait. There should be an audio cue. It coule send a message to sec or ai each time it was done.

This would allow sec to go places without neediny the hos to open doors for them or ai, while also preventing them from roaming freely. The action bar pause would also make it interruptable and provide counterplay options without changing things drasrically

[Soleil]

Security should be able to use their badge to open doors outside of their access. It should have a 5 to 10 second wait. There should be an audio cue. It coule send a message to sec or ai each time it was done.

This would allow sec to go places without neediny the hos to open doors for them or ai, while also preventing them from roaming freely. The action bar pause would also make it interruptable and provide counterplay options without changing things drasrically

Ooh, that's an option too. Like swiping your badge over the airlock for a few seconds as it does like some high pitch beeps to signal whats going on, that could definitely also work but would need more coding. Ideally it would take just long enough to be annoying so officers would just ask to be let in over using it, but that's a really good idea!

[Silent Majority]

Maybe even 15 seconds. Fast enough to not suffocate, slow enough to be vulnerable

[Mr. Moriarty]

Unifying Security access across the Classic and RP servers solely for the purpose of parity is tantamount to ignoring the cultural differences between the servers and Security playstyle on both. I feel this PR will disproportionately affect RP Security though, making the role significantly more tedious and reliant upon the AI and HoS, both of whom may not be present.

Security on RP is often slower paced than Classic, with emphasis on engaging with antagonists, holding interrogations, interviewing witnesses, and collecting evidence - to facilitate this, Security requires expanded access to reach crime scenes and talk to witnesses. With the proposed changes, accessing these areas would become more difficult and reliant on involving an AI, who isn't always present. Issues with further relegating the AI to a glorified door opener have already been raised. An alternative to involving the AI is involving the HoS - a role which in my experience is almost always juggling three things at once, and there is absolutely no need to add a fourth for almost no reason. If neither are present, this may create a culture where RP Officers carrying hacking tools becomes normalised, which I feel to be very out of place on the RP servers, as it does not make sense for the security force of a space station to be required to hack their way into areas.

On Classic, this PR represents an access increase for officers and the HoS, which may result in antagonists being oppressed - a testmerge will confirm or deny this. I do not have nearly as much experience as Security on Classic, so I cannot comment further on more nuanced effects; others have already discussed this aspect. You yourself have stated that you do not see any issue with Classic access on the Classic servers.

One final issue I take with this PR is the removal of access from the HoS - the offices I can understand to a degree, but everywhere else I do not - I do not consider "no crime here" on any part of the station to be accurate, nor does it align with my experience as HoS. What I find particularly egregious is the removal of ID computer access, which I feel will only serve to make demotions an incredibly lengthy process, requiring the involvement of the HoP or Captain, who may be not present, may be busy, or may be involved in the crime. As it is currently, if a demotion is required, the HoS can use the spare ID console, and it can be done in under a minute; this is how I feel Security business should be conducted - efficiently, in a way that prioritises antag-sec interactions over jumping through bureaucratic hoops that wastes time for both Security and the perpetrator.

Your reasoning for this PR is stated as: “I have seen many RP players express a distaste for how much access officers get, and as a classic player I dont see any issue with the access officers have here.”. If you have no issue with Classic access, why not just slightly reduce RP access? Why go for the nuclear option that is ignoring server differences and trying to cater for two very different Security cultures with the same access set?