Puritan Complaint Thread (with some suggestions)

[Kotomata]

I can't write intros for shit so im just going to bullet point out my problems and solutions

       THE BAD

• Puritan is a trait that punishes OTHER PLAYERS ontop of the actual trait taker. Medical allergy is a trait that affects how medical interacts with a player, but if the doctors fuck up it's just you getting owned. Puritan wastes the entire saved up clone and creates a giant mess if you accidentally clone them. I think this is bad
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• Puritan is a trait that makes it much harder for you to get revived, which means there's a real possibility of it being used purely to roll for antag midrolls more efficiently. This isn't THAT bad but I think it's kind of gross and easily fixable
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• Puritan gives 2 points for something that doesn't actually hinder you in any meaningful way. This on top of the previous point makes it pretty Gamer, and I think it could use some rebalancing
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• Thematically (in my opinion) puritan does not make sense. Going off the trait name, you would assume it means that the player's character does not want revival, and has a sort of DNR put in with NT, but instead it makes them violently explode. The other explanation I've seen is that the trait makes the character's genetic code non-compliant with the cloner, but this doesn't make sense either as you still pop out as a human clone, just with a bunch of toxins damage.
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• Puritan, the trait that is supposed to make you not cloneable, does not actually make you uncloneable. Experienced doctor players have on many occasions puricloned successfully, which kind of defeats the entire purpose of the trait
  

        SUGGESTIONS

• IDEA ONE: Make Puritan DNR you. This fits thematically, prevents it from being an antag-rolling trait, and stops fucking over medical players for no reason
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• IDEA TWO: Make puritan meatcube you (or some other flesh creature). This fits with the other thematics it has, but still fucks over medical players. I'd rather another suggestion make it in.
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• IDEA THREE: Make puritans un-cloneable, but not DNR. This keeps borging as an option, fits thematically without being too arbitrary, stops fucking over medical players, but still allows for easier antag-rolling. Probably the best compromise solution, given that the antag-rolling part of Puritan isn't really an issue.
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• BONUS IDEA: maybe knock the points it gives down by 1 or something idk i dont actually care about the points it gives that much
  
• if you guys have ideas post them i guess this isnt an exhaustive list
  

[crunchwarp]

Disagree that puritan 'fucks over medical players'. As a former doctor main, one of the more exciting/fun things you can do is try to puritan clone. The main reason I started picking puritan was not so I would never get resurrected, but to add some more complexity for medical staff.

It's also one of the best reasons to use the MedTrak PDA thing

Of course, not every doctor wants to engage with this, and that's totally fine! I don't ever expect to be successfully cloned. If someone wants to play the role by letting anyone with more than 100 damage die and then clone them, that's fine too probably! It's a deep game and not every mechanic is for every player

But, I personally would be disappointed if puritans were made uncloneable for these reasons.

[Spoodle]

Overall, I see two main problems outlined

• People exploding when cloned (because of gameplay and theme considerations)
  
• The trait not actually being that bad (better midroll chance, can still be cloned with skill, and +2 points)
  

I disagree with the first point being a problem, but I can see how there could be some valid things with the second point. I'll address the them in order.

When it comes to Puritans exploding when cloned, I don't see problems with it on any front. Thematically, I think it can be rationalized fine. You can either go down the route of your DNA being messed up as Zamu suggested in the discord (you do turn out pale-white, as "somewhat" yourself), or you could say that the person morally doesn't want be cloned. Then, this person who doesn't want to be be cloned being cloned anyway, and then dying a horrible death in the name of more laborers for NanoTrasen is funny black comedy (to me), and thus perfectly fitting with the theme. DNR is more of an OOC consideration in my mind, but I like how players could RP their desire to not be cloned either way.

As for the gameplay experience for other players, I don't see a problem either. Biomatter is cheap, and generating a clone doesn't take very long, so it doesn't meaningfully hinder the cloning of other players. With the mess, I still think people exploding into gibs is funny, and it gives the janitors something to do anyway.

As for the benefits of Puritan, I've never considered how it could be used for a better midroll chance, but I can see how people could do that. I think Calliope put it on the discord quite well, that the main issue is people suiciding early, but that Puritans could still be given the midroll weight of round-start observers. That'd resolve that issue in my mind, at least. (you could even go as far as to get rid of their ability to midroll entirely. i just think that removing their ability to be borged or even cloned is too far)

Finally, you say that Puritan doesn't hinder the player in any meaningful way, but as someone who values being alive as a humanoid, I think that not being able to be cloned successfully a majority of the time is a pretty big hindrance. Yes people can clone you with skill, but it's not that often in my experience. That being said, I wouldn't be opposed to making it a +1 trait instead of a +2.

So overall, I think that some minor changes could be made to make Puritan more balanced in the context of other game systems, but I don't have any problems with how the cloning process of Puritans currently works.

[JOELED]

As someone who always rolls puritan, and would continue to do so even if puritan was made -2 instead of +2 and made you ineligible for midroll spawns or autoDNRed you, I'm a bit biased to weigh in. However, I agree with a lot of what spoodle said. Clones and biomatter are cheap, and if enough people are dying that you've got a backlog of people to clone and you're going to have to sit and wait for a new clone anyways then 1. you should have enough biomatter to go around and 2. that waiting period is a perfect time to medtrak for records and see if you've got any puritans in the mix. As a janitor, sometimes puritan explosions are the only actual mess that I get to clean up all round. I understand it can be inconvenient for doctors to have blood and gibs in medbay, but it's hardly the only source of either of those -- It's the place for bleeding and damaged folks to all congregate and get blood everywhere haha.

There are two things I do have opinions about in regards to puritans though that I'd like to bring up given that this is the Puritan Gripes Thread:

1. Mindhack cloners being able to bypass the puritan trait when cloning.
There is a PR open with this concept that has had mixed feedback: https://github.com/goonstation/goonstation/pull/18861
I'm of the opinion that while it is a longstanding gameplay mechanic that puritans Exist and Will Blow Up, the mindhack cloning module is generally considered to be one of the hardest to actually get going with effectively. That makes sense because of the strength it has, being infinite permanent mindhacks, and perhaps I just don't have a very good grasp on the existing balance but every mindhack cloner attempt I've seen except one has ended up falling apart anyways and every person I've asked has said that it's just not worth the risk/reward in its current state. Which, yea, a lot of traitor stuff is like that and that's not inherently a bad thing, but I just genuinely don't think it would be a big deal to throw them a bone with this in the same vein that you can't just DNR to get out of becoming a vamp thrall. Maybe it'd get used more by spiefs or surplus tots, I dunno. It'd be neat.

2. Doing a successful puritan clone is pretty dang easy. This is more of an RP thing than a classic thing, but there have been a few big long discussions about it in different channels in the discord where I've seen different devs weighing in on it so while I'm sure there's more important conversations about it happening between devs I really agree with the idea that puritan cloning is too easy now. Or, like, doctors have gotten too good at it like was suggested last time I saw it discussed. It used to be something that was really hard and rare, but the past year or so when I played on RP I was just like always getting puritan cloned. It didn't feel special or impressive anymore, it was just expected. I don't really play much on RP anymore so I'm not sure if the most recent change to address it (the addition of more cloning defects for puritans) has had much of an effect, I'm mostly bringing it up here to see if anyone else HAS been on RP and can say whether or not it's been noticeably harder/rarer since then.

[Meggal Bozale]

I think puritan is fine, honestly. If people don't want to play after they die at all, AutoDNR should be a setting and not a trait. Medical players can easily bypass the issues puritans present by spending like 30-60 seconds to check their record before hitting clone.

I of course to bear the opinion that cloning is uninteresting and should require effort to use and maintain, and puritans getting cloned + eating biomatter fits as a part of that. (Not like biomatter is so scarce that a single puritain isn't as simple as butchering the nearest monkey, which is typically no more than 10 tiles away around genetics.)

[imawxome21]

I never liked cloneing puratins, its seems like something that's hard, untill you learn to just defib and stick em in the cryo, and toss some charcoal in to speed things along. I don't like losing the clone, the trait is either "Two free points because med cloned me" or " everyone has to wait for a new clone, and medical is probably just going to ignore everyone else to try to clone the puratin again, and now everyone is upset that they have to keep waiting when they could be alive"

[Emimiyu]

Agreeing that it seems puritan is just now free +2 trait, especially on RP, where some people have an OOC expectation that you have to clone puritan right as meddoc or you would have some people actually being salty about it (which mostly not even the guy who pick puritan). The only downside is a small chance of someone decide to borg you because they don't want to bother with puricloning or major cloning defect, that seems not to be that much of an issue.

It feels no different than the time when we could still SR puritan, except now instead of waiting for barkeep to get you wine or botany getting you omnizine, you just need to rush synap, anti tox meds, and cryo.

Tbh, I would not complain about the trait cost if people are more likely to borg puritan, because silicon role isn't for everyone or people prefer to play as human more. But seeing how easy it is to puriclone and how major clone defect is... meh ish, it still feels "free trait points" for me.

[Solenoid]

To be honest, I don't hate Puritan, but it does feel like a sort of thematically clashing trait. As you mentioned, puritan implies some sort of religious or other ideological apprehension towards being cloned, not your genes being incompatible with the process. That's the traditional definition of the term, and would be what I expect from a Puritan trait.

Regardless, I think it'd be a good idea to change how Puritan works, or split it into two traits. For the first option, prevent cloning whatsoever and keep the +2 cost. For the second, an option that disallows any sort of clone scan or cloning for +2 points, and one option that does what Puritan does now for +1. One could be framed more as a "I don't want to be cloned whatsoever, it says so on my records and the machines refuse to scan me" type trait, and the other could simply be "my genetic structure is incompatible with the cloning machines, so I may come out messed up". 

Not super worried about the trait being changed or not, but I thought I'd throw in my own two cents since the topic seemed interesting. 

[Wander]

Cloning puritans is a choice, if you refused to check their medical record for it and just hit go then the loss of the time or clone is on you solely. If you purposely try cloning them and fail, that was also your decision. The puritan player just presents doctors the choice, to try or not. If you really dislike the situation they cause, you can just ignore it by storing their body and deleting any cloning record they have then convince your fellow doctors to do similarly since they also get that choice. If the other doctors choose to do that, then whatever responsibility/cost falls on them. The puritan chose the trait so just letting them stay dead as a doctor is an entirely reasonable decision; they are not entitled to a revival since they chose that trait. The substantially greater chance to stay dead/have doctors not go to revive you is why it gives 2 points compared to players without it that will almost always be cloned.

As for the midroll thing, it is also easy for people to just kill themselves through other means.

All of this considered, I think the trait is fine.

[meaow589]

I mainly Doctor game and i love to clone Puritan because it only few challenge doctoring we have and i dont want to broge people.i will borge only if i cant safe them after try it already.by the way clone puritan is not that bad i always do it and many case clone puritan is success.

[Fuppy]

I don't see an issue with puritan cloning, and I personally don't get frustrated as an MD if I puri clone. Accidents happen sort of deal. Most people who I've talked to who take puritan definitely take it for the extra challenge. I don't really like puritan cloning being seen as a gamer challenge for MD nerds such as myself. As fun as it is to successfully clone a puritan, it feels a bit like you're trying to reach a high score rather than saving someone (speaking from an RP perspective). I'd be fine with puritans being much harder to save than they currently are.

[Keiiro]

Almost, if not all of the characters that I play with have the puritan trait. The reasoning behind that decision is that I want my death to have a visible impact in the round. As it is currently, cloning non-puritans is just a push of a button and waiting, I believe death is disappointingly trivial unless the cloner is gone or the body gibs. Both of which are not common scenarios in RP.

If there was an alternative or change to puritan that retained the impact of dying and difficulty of revival, while lessening the work on others, I'd take it. Personally, I preferred puritan when SR was available as a valid revival method for them. Making puritan fully prevent cloning, and instead require SR to be used would be a fun solution in my opinion.

[WhatMG]

As someone who plays medical quite a bit, puritan cloning has been something to attempt when there's nothing else going on. In some rounds, that's possible, and in others it isn't. I think that it should probably be accepted that if you're a puritan, you shouldn't expect to be cloned - It MAY happen, but it's not a sure thing.

I'd like to see cloning changed in some way, instead, but that's an entirely different discussion.

[Destrucnope]

From my experience as a usual Mdir, puritan is only a fun challenges for doctors to try to tackle! It give something to do when medbay is empty, Give the puritan a chance to respawn.And even when the doctors fail, it's fine, since the puritan cloning process is very unforgiving, and everyone knows it! And if the doctors don't feel like puritan cloning, they can always just ignore it! So I disagree with the whole it punishes other player, because nobody is forcing you to clone them!

[Jillith]

I have been using puritan for some time and would really prefer more of a flat-out cloning incompatibility trait that still allows for borging. You would think puritan would at least help encourage that, but in practice I have yet to ever see it play out that way. Your brain goes cold as soon as someone jumps the gun and that's that.

As for the trait itself, I think it's dumb from an RP standpoint that puritans can be cloned scot-free. It needs lasting consequences. Your character should at the very least resent the fact that it happened, but I think it would be way more Fun if the consequences of it were more forceful and affected the rest of the station. Like say instead of just exploding, puritan clones become cursed beings (with cursed brains! transplants cannot save them) as a result of their unwilling soul. This results in horrible fits of illness that make them virtually impossible to keep alive safely. You'd just end up creating a crewmate that is involuntarily deafening people with banshee wails, projectile-vomiting all kinds of harmful substances on themselves and others, and just generally being a self-destroying hazard that takes a much bigger toll on the medical department's time and resources for as long as it's kept alive.

Also it should be a crime to clone them.