Leaving the Hivemind: A discussion

[Nerkson]

When a Changeling gets hungry, they look for a staff assistant to munch on. As the Ling is drinking their new grey energy drink, the poor soul of that lone wanderer gets sucked into the Hivemind forever changed, and now a part of the greater whole that is being a Changeli-

And they left the hivemind with the button.

I will admit I am very guilty of this. I don't have a lot of fun playing as a hivemind member, so I usually leave it as soon as possible. This, coupled with the fact that I am very quickly able to get cloned because I make it a point to stop in for a clone scan, means I'm back in the round not long after my first demise.

I wanted to have a discussion on how people feel about the ability to willingly leave the hivemind. Currently the timer on it is something around ~30 seconds, and lets you be cloned fully immediately. The clone console updates within five seconds of leaving as well to notify medical that there's a dead person.

Worth mentioning is that this discussion is about willingly leaving the hivemind. If the Changeling kicks you out, then this should not apply, same with if the Ling is killed.

Some concerns with being able to willingly leave with no repercussions:

• The deceased can pop out, get cloned, and immediately start snitching on the changeling. This isn't too far different from other antags in some ways, but the entire point of the Changeling is that they absorb the person and in a way, that person who got ate becomes an antag.
  
• The changelings power is strong 1 vs 1 , but the addition of hivemind members means that your specialized limbs can really help you out. The Leg is extremely strong at breaking down glass windows, the eyes are very mobile and can help you complete objectives, and so on. Not having that toolkit available because people leave the hivemind as soon as possible isn't fun for the Changeling too, I imagine.
  

Some proposed changes:

• Add a timer to being cloned after willingly leaving the hivemind - keeps people from immediately snitching.
  
• Set the person to DNR and warn them of such if they click to leave the hivemind. Respawn is 10 minutes after all.
  
• Nothing. Maybe this is fine and intended, after all. People sometimes have to leave the round.
  

Edit: Some concerns as well are that maybe being in the Hivemind isn't very fun, and that the carrot needs to be changed not the stick.

[Retrino]

maybe not dnr specifically, but the record becoming corrupted could be interesting. its hard to make that call considering there is no respawning on 1, and changelings can kill freely with no escalation needed. ive seen lings sting and eat people within the first 10 minutes of the shift, so having no means of reviving that person even with a cloning record would suck a lot.

personally im fine with how it is. lings should be encouraged to sabotage cloning or check records to see who may or may not have already been scanned. theyre one of the most powerful antags, so having some confrontation from previous victims is both interesting rp wise and a decent counter to an otherwise permanently killing based antag

[Emimiyu]

I like the leaving hivemind ability. I find being in hivemind is boring and when I am a changeling, I kinda feel like it's a bit of a pressure because I feel the need to make it also fun for my hivemind. The issue is, the first point. Yeah. I don't think I like it when people can just leave to snitch and hunt the existing ling. Not to mention, we don't have a clone memory rules. I have one RP round where I caught an officer escalate it to make it obvious that there is something wrong, and someone came to my trap, only to quit the hivemind to go back so they can hunt me down. It is for me a fair game, but I have mixed feelings about it.

On the other hand, we have classic. If the cloner hasn't been destroyed and almost all of the crew are already dead, I would rather the crew have a chance to fight again. But on RP? I don't know how it feels. It's also weird how hivemind is IC and you can just tell people to "get out" or "I'm getting out of this".

[Lord_earthfire]

Holy shit, i was not aware you could get cloned if you leave the hivemind.

That's extremly bad. It's a mechanical incentive to not engage with the hivemind.

I am all for people leaving the hivemind to be unclone/borgable until the changeling dies.

[jan.antilles]

Holy shit, i was not aware you could get cloned if you leave the hivemind.

That's extremly bad. It's a mechanical incentive to not engage with the hivemind.

I am all for people leaving the hivemind to be unclone/borgable until the changeling dies.

Only if you were scanned before you died. Changelings leave husks when they kill people.

[meaow589]

Agree

[Snoid]

i feel like any sort of mechanical benefit to leaving hivemind is a huge mistake. the fact that you cant get cloned unless you leave hivemind is definitely something that needs to be fixed first before making any other major changes, just to see how that changes the Hivemind Culture.

[Kotlol]

In my opinion. As someone who once was killed over and over by the same changeling by cloning me and absorbing me. (3 times in a row I was killed and cloned)
I can say this...

If a changeling absorbs you, your cloning record is gone.
If you then have the option to leave the hivemind is fine, but you are giving up respawning after the changeling dieing.
BUT... you know how we always BURN THE CHANGELING? How about we add an option to "extract" the victims from the changeling's body.. and thus risking a headcrab?
Now we got intrigue of killing and the changeling waiting to jump out as headcrab.

This would probably more a RP thing... infact most of these mechanics aren't as needed in RP due to the: "Don't snitch the killer after being cloned rule"
But hey... just saying.

[Arlian]

I've never been a big fan of the existing Hivemind system in general. Speaking purely of my own experience on Classic, the hivemind usually consists of people either backseat gaming saying I should do this or that OR people who constantly beg to be a limb over and over again repeatedly. What's worse is that changeling limbs cost DNA, make you sit around for a minute in hiding waiting to regenerate a limb and the limbs you can produce are IMO some of the weakest parts of the kit. It takes one staff assistant with a vendetta and a fire extinguisher to ruin a hivemind limbs day and then it's back to more "I died, can I get leg / hand / eye?" repeatedly. Oh, and the entire crew now knows there's a changeling on station. I also feel like an asshole if I forcibly silence or eject people from the hivemind, so I tend to not use that feature (I guess I probably should use it more).

That being said, if being in the hivemind was more fun for absorbed players they would probably elect to stay in it over leaving in the hopes of getting cloned. Adding more things to do as a hivemind member and/or incentivizing limbs by buffing them or reducing penalties for creating them are two ideas that spring to mind. I feel like penalising players for choosing to leave the hivemind would be treating the symptoms, not the root problem.

[Snoid]

I've never been a big fan of the existing Hivemind system in general. Speaking purely of my own experience on Classic, the hivemind usually consists of people either backseat gaming saying I should do this or that OR people who constantly beg to be a limb over and over again repeatedly. What's worse is that changeling limbs cost DNA, make you sit around for a minute in hiding waiting to regenerate a limb and the limbs you can produce are IMO some of the weakest parts of the kit. It takes one staff assistant with a vendetta and a fire extinguisher to ruin a hivemind limbs day and then it's back to more "I died, can I get leg / hand / eye?" repeatedly. Oh, and the entire crew now knows there's a changeling on station. I also feel like an asshole if I forcibly silence or eject people from the hivemind, so I tend to not use that feature (I guess I probably should use it more).

That being said, if being in the hivemind was more fun for absorbed players they would probably elect to stay in it over leaving in the hopes of getting cloned. Adding more things to do as a hivemind member and/or incentivizing limbs by buffing them or reducing penalties for creating them are two ideas that spring to mind. I feel like penalising players for choosing to leave the hivemind would be treating the symptoms, not the root problem.

yeah for making big changes, i feel like the best option would just be to make ling more involved for the people u ate. make it feel more like you are One Of Us kinda thing. i dont really feel like the hivemind should primarily be utilized as a way to spawn more critters, i think itd be neat if like, there was an ability you could enable that makes you grow extra limbs (graphically like the shambler arm) and your hivemind can interact and click using those limbs. the more people u eat the more people are clicking on your enemies and giving u an edge.

tho 100% a thing i think should be in the game is eyespiders giving the ling a viewport of what they see and vice versa. when i rejoined the game 9 months ago i just assumed thats what the eyespider did but it didnt and i was so upset by that fact.

[Silent Majority]

The other option would bevthem going afk snd the ling having a button to randomly pay for a liability.

I think hive mind should be an opt-in for ghosts. Anytime they kill a ghost call could pop up.

If a ghost joins :
We Grow.
If not:
We Remain.

Could even let them spend a refundable 3 dna to pulse fir members without a Corpse.

[Dhaidburt]

The other option would bevthem going afk snd the ling having a button to randomly pay for a liability.

I think hive mind should be an opt-in for ghosts. Anytime they kill a ghost call could pop up.

If a ghost joins :
We Grow.
If not:
We Remain.

Could even let them spend a refundable 3 dna to pulse fir members without a Corpse.

OOOH, I like this idea! If you're trying to send out a horde of critters as a distraction, this'd really help with that. It could also be people who were once absorbed before getting on-station, and they're just resurfacing after a while

[Silent Majority]

That was my idea yes they're supposed to already be a the thing. Making ghost spawns would let them do it without murders right away