Suggestion: AI/DWAINE Interaction Micronerfs

[Karakoran]

I have spent a lot of time recently learning DWAINE, doing everything from teleman scripts to a DWAINE game to little prank scripts, and I am eager to continue. Most of DWAINE is quite innocuous, but I have seen it abused for evil a few times (confession: by myself). As a rogue AI, you can quite easily use teleman to obliterate the crew. This can be done maliciously with teletraps, but even more standard rogue AI behavior can get quite effective. For instance, you can clandestinely teleport all of the plasma cans from toxins to each air hookup on the map. However, it's worth remembering that this is really only doable as the AI. Silicons and humans find it difficult to get coordinates rapidly enough, even if they resort to using 3rd party programs (yuck) like online maps with coordinates. Thus, I think the appropriate solution is to try and nerf the AI's use of the mainframe, albeit only modestly.

Suggestion: Require the AI to be screwed down above a data terminal in order to access the Mainframe. The data terminal must itself also be connected to the mainframe.

These changes offers several new ways to shut down a tele-rampage AI:
1) Cutting power to the AI core will depower the data terminal (I think) and stop its mainframe access, and power can be cut in a number of ways.
2) Cutting off the wiring between AI core and Mainframe
3) Targeting the data terminal itself and using packets to remotely shut it off (highly theoretical)
4) Unscrewing the AI core

There are a number of other ways to fight the tele-rampage, but most of them aren't particularly effective or are very time-consuming. This would give the quick and easy strategy of just cutting mainframe access. Antagonists would also now have the option of sabotaging the AI this way, but it would be easy for another player (or AI shell) to repair once the antag left. Conversely, rogue AIs will have to negotiate for assistance from the antags and/or repair in spite of crew efforts to stop it.

-

The situation also presents a second problem. The game design surrounding the AI core is meant to be a sort of lair for the AI to defend, giving a fixed position for crew to rally at and fix. When the robotics control and law rack are gone/can't be replaced, the solution is meant to be killing the AI itself. Silicons were recently-ish reworked such that they can't interact with mainframe elements on a different Z-level. While this solves the nightmare scenario of an AI teleporting itself into the Debris Field and wrecking havoc with impunity and answered some interaction questions across Z-levels for things like the law rack, it doesn't solve the fundamental problem of a clandestine AI running amuck.



Suggestion2: Add some mechanics to the Mainframe_AI, allowing DWAINE users to ping it for location data and/or which data terminal it is using.

This would allow anyone with a working DWAINE terminal to easily locate the AI. I'm especially interested in how this would give Security a new tool in combating rogue AIs, as well as incentive to learn DWAINE - a game mechanic that Sec nerds might otherwise not touch. I think it would also be nice to add functionality for Mainframe_AI beyond logging in and calling the AI a nerd (>90% of current usage).

This second change will force the AI to either move rapidly to many different locations (dangerous + time-consuming, especially if it must screw in as in Sug 1) or remain in a single, fortified location. It would be preferable if this location data was only accessible when the AI is wired into the mainframe, but being accessible at all times shouldn't be a serious problem. 

-

Sadly, I don't think these changes can really be directly implemented at the moment. A handful of maps (Donut 2, Mushroom) have AI Satellites that are disconnected from the mainframe. Still, I feel it's the best way to address tele-rampage AIs without disrupting DWAINE. Hopefully it will get you guys thinking of better solutions!

Oh, and lastly, I urge people to avoid the temptation to call for nerfing the 'teleman' program itself (or worse, nerfing DWAINE, God forbid) and instead nerf things peripheral to it. 
Teleman remains one of the most engaging aspects of DWAINE and is a great learning step for would-be DWAINE nerds. It's how I really learned it. LMK if any of you want help learning, btw.
I believe we should also adopt a culture that frowns upon silicons using lethal teletraps. I've shifted towards kidnapping just a handful of victims of torturing them through various means (all much more interesting and engaging, I hope).
And teleman offers many, many, many benefits to the AI and station as a whole. You can use it to quickly scrape for artifacts, can gather dead bodies for cloning instantly, can give new players lots of expedient help (taking them where they want to go + delivering special requests), and so on. It would be quite sad to lose it entirely.

[Kotlol]

I can say this with confidence.. not many people know how to use DWAINE on this compitenence level. It's purposely clunky.
So this situation is even more rare then you think.

As someone who wants to nerf the DET-NET goggles cause it makes security records in the hands of an ANTAGONIST detective basically the most annoying thing in the world. It basically shuts down alerts and beepskies at best if the detective is a malicious one.

This is even more rare. Antagonist Detectives are waaaaay more common, but most do not use the VR goggles at all.
Now the chances of an AI going rogue? More rare then this.. since it requires human interaction.
And then this Ai being as skilled with DWAINE as you? Even more rare.

Also this requires telesci to be unoccupied since a scientist WILL notice the AI using the telemat. Since teleman/teleguy as you call it.. has to use the telemat to use things and a scientist sitting behind telesci wil notice this , especially if it drains the power rapidly.

[Lord_earthfire]

To be honest, in the 1,5 years i am playing on this server i have never seen a single AI weaponizing the telepad.

Besides that, there are many ways to fight one using it and only a few are lenghty. E.g. deleting teleman or simply snipping cameras. The ultimate solution would be to just get rid of the mainframe. Or cutting the connection between mainframe and telepad.

In general, the problem is people are simply not used to fighting dwaine users anymore. Besides the telepad, the weaponized use of dwaine, without much effort, is very limited nowadays.

[Kotlol]

In general, the problem is people are simply not used to fighting dwaine users anymore. Besides the telepad, the weaponized use of dwaine, without much effort, is very limited nowadays.

Pretty much this... the other problem is you can use the packet sniffer to sniff out who's sending packets like these, including PDA bombs... but you know what packet sniffers / log files also do?
Sniff out anyone who is a SPIEF or Traitor that gotten items from the black market.

I once was SPIEF robotcist and so was my fellow robotcist and we wanted to start a plan. To only have an engineer and security come down to our lab and arrest us for having contraband... And we were like: "Officer if you strip search us we got no contraband." Since naturally we hid in a crate somewhere.
We got taken in, our PDA's taken away, our stash was found and the evidence was the engineer using the packet sniffer to show waht EXACTLY we got.

So yes... it's hard to fight dwaine, use dwaine , but when you do... you are basically a god.. but to be fair.. it takes a lot of effort to do so and countering it requires another knowledgable DWAINE user.

[Dhaidburt]

RP player here, I've never been telekidnapped and one day I hope to be so lucky!

I only know a little bit of packet nonsense (I can open doors with my PDA!) but even then, I don't see a problem with this.. on RP where you need to have at least a little buildup. I'm assuming you're doing all of this cool stuff on classic and its done before sec/the crew can get things together to unrogue the law rack.

Solution 1 would be interesting but would also take time away from all the chaos that comes with the first 5 minutes of the round (clone scanning, planning, getting robotics to get you a shell, people waking up where they don't have access..) taking the AI out of their protective casing so they can use a computer seems weird too.

Side note, again not familiar with dwaine or much at all right now, but does teleman give out packets when it's used? Could be a way to combat it, just seeing where things are being teleported to, from the AI to any poor schmuck stuck in space.

[Lord_earthfire]

Side note, again not familiar with dwaine or much at all right now, but does teleman give out packets when it's used? Could be a way to combat it, just seeing where things are being teleported to, from the AI to any poor schmuck stuck in space.

The Telepad and the mainframe sends packets between each other over the wired station network. So a packet sniffer attached to the station grid will read packets that are

1. Send from the mainframe to the telepad

2. Packets that comfirm the actions done by the telepad to the mainframe

So yes... it's hard to fight dwaine, use dwaine , but when you do... you are basically a god.. but to be fair.. it takes a lot of effort to do so and countering it requires another knowledgable DWAINE user.

I would say the times of godhood due to dwaine arent there anymore. It has received its fair share of nerfs. But yeah, countering a good dwaine user requires another knowledgable dwaine user.

[Karakoran]

Solution 1 would be interesting but would also take time away from all the chaos that comes with the first 5 minutes of the round (clone scanning, planning, getting robotics to get you a shell, people waking up where they don't have access..) taking the AI out of their protective casing so they can use a computer seems weird too.

Side note, again not familiar with dwaine or much at all right now, but does teleman give out packets when it's used? Could be a way to combat it, just seeing where things are being teleported to, from the AI to any poor schmuck stuck in space.

Sorry for the confusion. Basically, on all maps, the AI Core spawns above a data terminal and is screwed down. On all maps, (except Donut 2, Mushroom, maybe a couple others), this data terminal is also wired into the mainframe. The idea would be that the AI should always have access to the mainframe at round-start, just as it does now. However, if the AI moves - like hiding somewhere on the edge of the map in space - it would then sever that data terminal and lose access to DWAINE. 

Teleman does use packets to inform the telepad to alter coordinates or perform a function (e.g. scan), so you can control it that way. Even something as simple as constantly resetting the pad should break its functionality. Using it to identify locations is a bit less doable, though. The pad receives commands for console coordinates to receive/send/relay/portal/scan with, so (1) you only see where things are going from/to and (2) you would have to interpret those console coordinates into real coordinates with the offsets (very doable but an obnoxiously slow intermediary step).

To be honest, in the 1,5 years i am playing on this server i have never seen a single AI weaponizing the telepad.

Besides that, there are many ways to fight one using it and only a few are lenghty. E.g. deleting teleman or simply snipping cameras. The ultimate solution would be to just get rid of the mainframe. Or cutting the connection between mainframe and telepad.

In general, the problem is people are simply not used to fighting dwaine users anymore. Besides the telepad, the weaponized use of dwaine, without much effort, is very limited nowadays.

Reading the other posts here, I do agree. It seems pretty rare since only a few people would even know how it's done, and none of the ones I've met seem to have the malice to do it repeatedly. It's just, when they do, it can be so effective. I worry that the knowledge will eventually proliferate and it'll become a chore. But maybe I overestimate the enthusiasm for DWAINE, as a certified fanatic.

The real secret you can always use is to pry the plating beneath the telepad tile and cut the cable coming off the data terminal. The downside is you have literally seconds to do it before you get warped to certain death.

[babayetu83]

kind of a self fulfilling prophecy if you're worried about people people doing this (which i should add is nested within nested rng, first to be even made rogue and then again to have the skill required to perform the complex actions you've laid out in detail)

[meaow589]

I have spent a lot of time recently learning DWAINE, doing everything from teleman scripts to a DWAINE game to little prank scripts, and I am eager to continue. Most of DWAINE is quite innocuous, but I have seen it abused for evil a few times (confession: by myself). As a rogue AI, you can quite easily use teleman to obliterate the crew. This can be done maliciously with teletraps, but even more standard rogue AI behavior can get quite effective. For instance, you can clandestinely teleport all of the plasma cans from toxins to each air hookup on the map. However, it's worth remembering that this is really only doable as the AI. Silicons and humans find it difficult to get coordinates rapidly enough, even if they resort to using 3rd party programs (yuck) like online maps with coordinates. Thus, I think the appropriate solution is to try and nerf the AI's use of the mainframe, albeit only modestly.

Suggestion: Require the AI to be screwed down above a data terminal in order to access the Mainframe. The data terminal must itself also be connected to the mainframe.

These changes offers several new ways to shut down a tele-rampage AI:
1) Cutting power to the AI core will depower the data terminal (I think) and stop its mainframe access, and power can be cut in a number of ways.
2) Cutting off the wiring between AI core and Mainframe
3) Targeting the data terminal itself and using packets to remotely shut it off (highly theoretical)
4) Unscrewing the AI core

There are a number of other ways to fight the tele-rampage, but most of them aren't particularly effective or are very time-consuming. This would give the quick and easy strategy of just cutting mainframe access. Antagonists would also now have the option of sabotaging the AI this way, but it would be easy for another player (or AI shell) to repair once the antag left. Conversely, rogue AIs will have to negotiate for assistance from the antags and/or repair in spite of crew efforts to stop it.

-

The situation also presents a second problem. The game design surrounding the AI core is meant to be a sort of lair for the AI to defend, giving a fixed position for crew to rally at and fix. When the robotics control and law rack are gone/can't be replaced, the solution is meant to be killing the AI itself. Silicons were recently-ish reworked such that they can't interact with mainframe elements on a different Z-level. While this solves the nightmare scenario of an AI teleporting itself into the Debris Field and wrecking havoc with impunity and answered some interaction questions across Z-levels for things like the law rack, it doesn't solve the fundamental problem of a clandestine AI running amuck.



Suggestion2: Add some mechanics to the Mainframe_AI, allowing DWAINE users to ping it for location data and/or which data terminal it is using.

This would allow anyone with a working DWAINE terminal to easily locate the AI. I'm especially interested in how this would give Security a new tool in combating rogue AIs, as well as incentive to learn DWAINE - a game mechanic that Sec nerds might otherwise not touch. I think it would also be nice to add functionality for Mainframe_AI beyond logging in and calling the AI a nerd (>90% of current usage).

This second change will force the AI to either move rapidly to many different locations (dangerous + time-consuming, especially if it must screw in as in Sug 1) or remain in a single, fortified location. It would be preferable if this location data was only accessible when the AI is wired into the mainframe, but being accessible at all times shouldn't be a serious problem. 

-

Sadly, I don't think these changes can really be directly implemented at the moment. A handful of maps (Donut 2, Mushroom) have AI Satellites that are disconnected from the mainframe. Still, I feel it's the best way to address tele-rampage AIs without disrupting DWAINE. Hopefully it will get you guys thinking of better solutions!

Oh, and lastly, I urge people to avoid the temptation to call for nerfing the 'teleman' program itself (or worse, nerfing DWAINE, God forbid) and instead nerf things peripheral to it. 
Teleman remains one of the most engaging aspects of DWAINE and is a great learning step for would-be DWAINE nerds. It's how I really learned it. LMK if any of you want help learning, btw.
I believe we should also adopt a culture that frowns upon silicons using lethal teletraps. I've shifted towards kidnapping just a handful of victims of torturing them through various means (all much more interesting and engaging, I hope).
And teleman offers many, many, many benefits to the AI and station as a whole. You can use it to quickly scrape for artifacts, can gather dead bodies for cloning instantly, can give new players lots of expedient help (taking them where they want to go + delivering special requests), and so on. It would be quite sad to lose it entirely.

As a person who got screwed up by AI tele rampage I can tell that this one is good micronerf but the true problem is there is like 10-20% of all station quite familiar with DWAINE and only few of them are expert which mean only expert player can use this tool well.So I agree with you but this will only effect few of expert player who master in Teleman and Dwaine

[444explorer]

This won't do anything to combat telenerd AIs as they could just use mechcomp and their PDA, which is what I see them do when I do encounter a telenerd AI. For me a solution would be to move Mainframe Equipment away from the AI Core on certain maps, make it easier to cut the power or disable the mainframe - probably would need to find a way to make people who are unaware that cutting power to that room or something is how to combat it? It'd still prove real tough with the telepad but then the AI has to also defend Computer Core, AI Core and AI Upload if it wants to stay alive.