[MERGED PR] Cyborg movement speed rebalance

[Ikea]

Looking at the before/after stated numbers, it looks like having light arms vs. no arms should actually increase a cyborg's speed, but I don't think that's what I've observed before (i.e. no arms is faster than light arms). Given that my understanding there based on that observation is flawed, could you clarify how a no-armed light cyborg with treads works, speed-wise?

Each lost arms applies a -.4 movement modifier. For old behavior, for light with treads this means a speed of .5, for new behavior light with treads armless coincidentally also goes a speed of .5. Base armless light borg will end up going a bit faster (1.0 to 0.7). It may not be a bad idea to reduce this buff to something like -.2/.15 in order to make part targeting arms more viable, though Ill leave that call for others (for now) (Also losing a leg modifies your speed by 3.5, changing this to like 1 in order to make losing a leg still technically escapable without teleportation could be good as well)

[Mordent]

Each lost arms applies a -.4 movement modifier. For old behavior, for light with treads this means a speed of .5, for new behavior light with treads armless coincidentally also goes a speed of .5. Base armless light borg will end up going a bit faster (1.0 to 0.7). It may not be a bad idea to reduce this buff to something like -.2/.15 in order to make part targeting arms more viable, though Ill leave that call for others (for now) (Also losing a leg modifies your speed by 3.5, changing this to like 1 in order to make losing a leg still technically escapable without teleportation could be good as well)

Feels like the "base" behavior should be allowing for no arms, then arms add on top of that? So no arms is no modifier, light arms are +0.05, standard are +0.10, sturdy are +0.20, heavy are +0.35 (numbers here keep the difference between the arms the same as you have them).

I would also be agreeable to no arms having the same move speed as light arms. This would make attacking the arms of a cyborg a pure benefit to the attacker, rather than you ending up bopping them off and them speeding the heck up out of there.

One/no legs being a penalty makes more sense to me, "base" to work from is "has two standard legs", i.e. light legs, treads, thrusters speed them up.

Essentially, I would like the no-arm case to be handled (with it either the same as light arms or only marginally faster than light arms) prior to this being merged.

[DasBrain]

As a borg player, I was skeptical about the entire premise of this: That borgs are too fast.
I do not think this is the case. But hey, that is just my opinion.

I subjectively see less borg players now that those changes are test merged - which is a good indicator for me that other borg players do not like those changes either.

Now it feels that borgs with treads and screen head are just as fast as a non-sprinting human - but unlike humans, borgs can not sprint.
So their base speed should be higher to offset that.

[Lord_earthfire]

Now it feels that borgs with treads and screen head are just as fast as a non-sprinting human - but unlike humans, borgs can not sprint.

This sounds overall like a good place to be. Borgs should have never been faster than running humans without significant upgrades (thrusters or oil) anyway. A human burns down stamina and suffers heavy penalties in combat for sprinting.

[DasBrain]

Now it feels that borgs with treads and screen head are just as fast as a non-sprinting human - but unlike humans, borgs can not sprint.

This sounds overall like a good place to be. Borgs should have never been faster than running humans without significant upgrades (thrusters or oil) anyway. A human burns down stamina and suffers heavy penalties in combat for sprinting.

But borgs are not built to fight - quite the opposite.
That is why we do not give them the usual deconstruction tool that engineers get.

This is a bad change - while it may make combat easier, you take the exceptional state and nerf the general state to improve that.

[Ikea]

I subjectively see less borg players now that those changes are test merged - which is a good indicator for me that other borg players do not like those changes either.

Now it feels that borgs with treads and screen head are just as fast as a non-sprinting human - but unlike humans, borgs can not sprint.
So their base speed should be higher to offset that.

For the former comment, its shockingly hard to get feedback on this pr considering how widespread it is. Speaking to the crowd here but please please please, share your feedback on discord or the forums, I will read them and it does help me gauge stuff, it doesnt have to be in depth just say it because no one else will. 

I did try and keep the average speed with sprinting in mind for borg changes. You can look at the spreadsheet in the pr, but the average speed of a human with sprinting in mind is 1.45ish, a screenhead light tread borg will be 1.3 (and light borg with treads will be 1.2). I'm not against reducing the screenhead speed penalty slightly to the same as standard (again depending on feedback). 

The comment about lack of burst speed is fair, this pr was focused more on light borgs being way too quick at station traversal then combat, oil changes help in this regard, but I've also been putting off reworking speed module to be shift key toggleable and that should also help when I get around to doing that.

[444explorer]

My usual build is Screenhead + Light Parts. Yeah I know, no treads on RP? Impossible! Jokes aside I haven't noticed much of a difference at all and I'd consider this a positive - change seems to be targeting the actual issues with borg speed (treads being too fast, heavy being too slow) without interfering with speeds I previously found to be completely fine to play against & with (Screenhead + Light, no treads or Speed Upgrade). So far has seemed good imo!

[DasBrain]

My usual build is Screenhead + Light Parts. Yeah I know, no treads on RP? Impossible! Jokes aside I haven't noticed much of a difference at all and I'd consider this a positive - change seems to be targeting the actual issues with borg speed (treads being too fast, heavy being too slow) without interfering with speeds I previously found to be completely fine to play against & with (Screenhead + Light, no treads or Speed Upgrade). So far has seemed good imo!

From the spreadsheet, it looks like full light borgs and screen head did not have any changes in their effective speed.

[Cal]

But borgs are not built to fight - quite the opposite.

Regardless of what I think about the PR, the fact is borgs are *extremely* effective killers, able to slash you 6 times with a circular saw and then run away at extreme speed without using stamina, since they don't have it - While you're gasping and bleeding out, they can keep slashing with no repercussions.

[Ikea]

My usual build is Screenhead + Light Parts. Yeah I know, no treads on RP? Impossible! Jokes aside I haven't noticed much of a difference at all and I'd consider this a positive - change seems to be targeting the actual issues with borg speed (treads being too fast, heavy being too slow) without interfering with speeds I previously found to be completely fine to play against & with (Screenhead + Light, no treads or Speed Upgrade). So far has seemed good imo!

From the spreadsheet, it looks like full light borgs and screen head did not have any changes in their effective speed.

In this specific case it is a slight benefit to speed (1.6 was old, 1.5 is new) as the light head speed modifier is less (more?) compared to previous values, meaning that swapping to a non light head slows you down less.

[rando212]

funny thing is I kind of forgot this change happened because the light borg speed values are so similar that I did not notice it at first. But, thinking back to the few times I was borged in heavier parts I did notice that I did not feel like I was moving at the speed of a snail. Overall I am pretty positive about this change and I haven't noticed any real issues with heavy borgs causing major damage or anything (despite the speed increase all that armor doesn't do anything against a flash) and one positive I have noticed out of this for non borg players is that I have seen roboticists experiment with different borg setups. Before this change I saw a heavy or super heavy head like once a blue moon but now it seems almost common.

[babayetu83]

i can't help but feel this is just a targetted nerf against treads, i never see them being used anymore

[Lord_earthfire]

i can't help but feel this is just a targetted nerf against treads, i never see them being used anymore

I still see them quite often on 3 and would even say most borgs had them there before the testmerge.