Donut 2's Research Outpost: I Don't Like It Personally

[mintyphresh]

I'm a big fan of playing Science, especially chemistry. Like half of the jobs on station, Science is very much a department that likes to stay in its department... Maps like Donut 3, Kondaru, and especially Nadir are ones that I like because they put Chemistry (and in Nadir's case, almost the entire department) in a space with a window into a main hall near a central location. I think this is great for RP, and breaks isolation really well. Some other maps don't do this so well; Cog2 tucks the entire department behind 5 window blocks, and you're unlikely to catch more than a glimpse of someone working Oshan's science because of that weird second hallway.

...And then there's Donut2, which puts the entire department on a separate, self-reliant station, with showers, food, drink, a lounge, 5 roundstart artifacts... Hell, they even have metal and glass sheets for repairs, toolboxes, multitools, their own power source, their own disposals, extensive medical supplies, a surgical table... Getting to and from there is a pain and you'll never see a soul there that's not in a purple and white jumpsuit, unless some good-hearted engineer sets up a teleport system and remembers to hit Zeta.

The satellite is a cool idea, but the roleplay experience for me as a scientist there is so bad that I've stopped queueing for the job when I see that Donut 2 is the next map. Sure, I can absolutely just take that 30-second trek to the nearest point of congregation on the main station, but during that time I'm nowhere near the place I'm supposed to be doing my job, and when I'm at my job, I'm only talking to other scientists (very rarely). It feels like a punishment to have to walk all that way just to share a beer with someone.

What's your take on Zeta's independence, and how it affects RP? Is there some change you would make to lessen this problem?

[TDHooligan]

yeah it sucks imo. chem doesnt really blow up nowadays so its just antag hell for no raisin. its also super easy to lock down entirely with 1-2 antags.

if you call the shuttle THEN start murdering, you get a whole extra minute of bonus time to do murdering while people scream your name over the radio. sec just gets to tap their feet at the dock until then. Outside of the mapvote, science doesn't really get a say in becoming early game antag food either.

[Silent Majority]

Zeta feels like it was made as a gift to antags. Its filled with food and is also super fortifable. It even has some easy to grab sec gear security won't notice gone.

while I like the IDEA of it, I feel like it should just start with a two way teleporter automatically to like the bar or something.

[Chasu]

I think the problem is Donut 2 itself. Its layout is outdated, not focused on increasing player density and interaction and doesn‘t encourage players to leave their department for equipment. While it features many interesting, experimental concepts such as the separate SMES grids, the AI satellite and off-station research, it feels like it’s only in rotation today for nostalgia reasons and would require major remapping to deal with these issues.

My point is: We already have Donut 3, there is no reason to keep its outdated predecessor around.

[Lord_earthfire]

I like the oupost. It really gives science a more tight knit appearance and the best science RP kinda happens there. Because there is only one way out, and if some scientists fuck up, all others got serious problems.

And the best of it: it got So. Much. Free. Space. Many other science departments are just atrociously packed (Kondaru...)

Having that said, it could need a second way to enter/escape. Like a podbay. Or a mass driver straight to belt hell. Or a slow teleporter, like an elevator.

[Chasu]

I like the oupost. It really gives science a more tight knit appearance and the best science RP kinda happens there. Because there is only one way out, and if some scientists fuck up, all others got serious problems.

And the best of it: it got So. Much. Free. Space. Many other science departments are just atrociously packed (Kondaru...)

Having that said, it could need a second way to enter/escape. Like a podbay. Or a mass driver straight to belt hell. Or a slow teleporter, like an elevator.

Please note that I‘m not an experienced mapper and that all of these points are just drawn from my observations.

I agree with your point on science RP, but to me, the “tight knit appearance“ is more isolation than anything else. Chemical requests, for example, are much easier to deliver on maps where Chemistry is connected to the rest of the station, allowing for simple over-the-counter conversations and exchanges. On Donut 2, the distance makes interactions like a quick „How are my chems coming along?“ more difficult; PDA and radio messages are a lot easier to overlook when one is focusing on a project compared to someone actually going to chem and asking in person.

Scientists have serious problems if others fuck up, regardless of map. If anything, accidents are often less severe on the Outpost due to all of the extra space. In a cramped department (like Kondaru‘s research), a single spaced tile can often result in all of research being depressurized.

Also, I’d like to point out that it already has its own podbay, directly southeast of the entrance.

[Lord_earthfire]

Also, I’d like to point out that it already has its own podbay, directly southeast of the entrance.

Well, goddamn, stuff you miss when you stick in your branch of science.

I agree with your point on science RP, but to me, the “tight knit appearance“ is more isolation than anything else. Chemical requests, for example, are much easier to deliver on maps where Chemistry is connected to the rest of the station, allowing for simple over-the-counter conversations and exchanges. On Donut 2, the distance makes interactions like a quick „How are my chems coming along?“ more difficult; PDA and radio messages are a lot easier to overlook when one is focusing on a project compared to someone actually going to chem and asking in person.

Scientists have serious problems if others fuck up, regardless of map. If anything, accidents are often less severe on the Outpost due to all of the extra space. In a cramped department (like Kondaru‘s research), a single spaced tile can often result in all of research being depressurized.

I agree with many of your points. While science RP is more pronounced, cross-department interaction is not.

What i dont agree with is faults being less severe on the outpost. While yes, less space is affected, the difference is simply being able to directly leave on other maps. On Kondaru, i can fuck off directly into maintenance and medbay is directly next door. Good luck trying this on donut 2.

The scramble to the shuttle and the dying walk of shame to medbay is still the most intense in donut 2.

I am currently thinking about about a way to enable other departments to better talk with the science outpost... i think a situation would be the best to have a publically accessable counter to chemistry. That's is a thing Kondaru chemistry does right. This is rather easy, since chemistry is next to the public area of the science outpost.

[mintyphresh]

Having a transport method other than the shuttle would be nice, too, if Zeta gets changed to be more public-facing. Maybe the whole station gets mirrored, placed on the opposite side of the donut, then there's a longass airbridge? Maybe with conveyors to speed up walking

[JOELED]

I usually ask to set up a mechcomp teleporter if I roll sci on donut 2 because I find the shuttle slow and annoying, yeah, but goddamn do I love rolling sci on donut 2. It's huge with so much room for projects, and the toxins test range is awesome (I really wish more maps had an equivalent, it saves time that I usually have to spend setting one up myself now that the crystal bazaar is a thing). My only actual gripe with it is how frustrating it is for blob spawns -- Every blob round I've played on donut 2 has been a sci outpost deploy and complete sweep because of the shuttle situation, it's not fun to fight. But, uh Not really an RP problem lol

I don't find the isolation a problem for RP, but I also don't usually spend my entire shift in sci on other maps either. I tend to walk around a lot to get help and conversation from other departments, and I don't find that the outpost discourages me from that

[Kotlol]

Okay here comes a new challanger.

I find donut 2's Science outpost... good "IN PRACTICE"
Science won't damage the station and won't get harrased. There is a security checkpoint on it so they can get their own guard.

THAT SAID...I don't think it makes direct interactions. The best example of a science outpost is Donut 3.
Why is that? Since it's optional.

In my opinion the science outpost needs to be on EVERY MAP as an alternative and put the test chamber there.
Now antags can also meet in it too to get things that isn't the listening post. (Aka non traitors)

Infact my least favorite science area is....Oshan. Cause how broken appart it is. And the fact robotics core and the AI core are located there.
But if you wanna do gas science.. you gotta bring it to the science outpost.
Tele science has this awkward connection with the main hallway...
And the robobuddies have this awkward corner below tele science.
Only artifacts and chem sci are right next eachother... But the rest feels so disconnected.

Anyway.. science needs to be on station in their own corner and have an outpost for more extreme testing.
It's just more fun for a scientist to go: "Can I blow up the outpost for a test?"

[Lord_earthfire]

Why is that? Since it's optional.

Let's take a more rolled map as an example: We have an optional science outpost on Oshan as well and i almost never see someone working there.

I think, like others said, connecting the science outpost with the station better will be a better direction to go.

[Cal]

yeah i heavily dislike the outpost. ive personally observed lings just camping it and getting anyone that shows up

[Snowy :D]

I like the science outpost, it’s a fun idea that makes the map unique. Although, I cant say that I’m a fan of how it isolates people from the rest of the station. Perhaps there could be better ways for the outpost to communicate with the main station? I’m a little afraid that if it a new feature was implemented to do so, it would end up being ignored by most of the crew.

[Kotlol]

Why is that? Since it's optional.

Let's take a more rolled map as an example: We have an optional science outpost on Oshan as well and i almost never see someone working there.

I think, like others said, connecting the science outpost with the station better will be a better direction to go.

I never seen people work on the science outpost in Donut 3 either. And Oshan's outpost is not OPTIONAL. It's the only place to do "gas science" if you red the whole post.
But I do agree there are shifts people go there to do stuff since the connection is much easier.

If you want my truest opinion.
Science outpost needs:
- A small gas storage
- A small gas/explosive area.
- A small chem station.
- A small artifact testing room.
- Test chamber.

And I don't mean there whole thing with small. More like "Enough to run smaller tests with tools"
Everything else is main station only. And telesci will be main station only too.

Anyway... I do think the connection to the "outpost" in oshan is best so far. If anything why not just teleport to it?

[JOELED]

I don't like the suggested idea of putting a research outpost on every map. I like that different maps have different facilities available, it gives them character... And this post already shows how disliked the outposts that already exist are, so idk what adding a bunch more would bring to the table other than making more places for antags to farm