On the subject of RP Security Officer access

[DisturbHerb]

Security's access level on RP is extensive. With the ability to walk into just about every department, every room outside of the Bridge, and operate almost any access-locked machine, individual officers can be exceedingly powerful and effective.

I don't personally think this is conducive to a good roleplaying environment if a Security Officer can stay in their lane while simultaneously being able to do so much if they wanted. It can sometimes feel like the expanded access is a holdover from when LLJK #1 was persistently lowpop, where Security Officers had to have the expanded access for the station to function.

Shouldn't Security be encouraged to require the cooperation of the crew rather than act as a force divorced from their wants and desires?

Please be respectful in discussing this topic. This is just a personal opinion and may not be representative of the consensus among other HoSii or Security players, after all.

[AgrippaHera]

On RP, security feels too separate from the rest of the crew, especially because they don't need the crew's help for much. I think even a simple "Hey, we think a suspect walked into your department, mind if we come in to take a look?" can facilitate a good amount of RP and make them feel less of an isolated department from the rest of the crew.

Additionally, as an antagonist, it doesn't feel good to have very few on-station spots to hide or even take a breather. Being able to pop into your own department can give you a few moments to think, or maybe even fun RP through the window.

While I think security might suffer a bit from this change on lowpop (Especially on 4, where there is a good period of time where populations are pretty low), I think it's worth it overall.

[Chatauscours]

I believe that removing the extended access from security, will just cause security to find an AA on the slightest sign of trouble, like it happens on other servers that have limited access for sec. And I think that down the line ends won't justify the means, cosndiering that at the end of the day the ends won't even apppear. Security will be more inclined to ask for AI's aid than a member of the department, since in a lot of cases the members of department won't assist you, as they won't even notice you (thinking of sci / genetics in particular).

[KingMorshu]

I can see both sides to this honestly, in terms of enabling RP, but I'm of the belief of keeping things as they are. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me that the department that is supposed to be keeping the peace couldn't go into most of the departments, and as Chatauscours said, you're going to run into officers asking for AA every round, more reliance on the AI, or the already busy HoS is going to have to show up to every call in a department if the officers can't get someone to open the door.

Antagonists already have a lot of tools and tactics at their disposal to hide and evade security, and having a security force that can get into most places I think helps RP wise in this way. If someone is doing something questionable and ducks into a department and the officers can follow you, it usually makes for a good RP confrontation. It's all about the dialogue, and while you could be enabling more dialogue between crew and security, this seems like it would reduce it between security and the antagonists. Some of the best rounds I've had as sec was when we suspected someone, but they were always able to explain it, and thus led to some very good stories.

I do know this would be a bigger problem on Goon 4. It's mostly where I play, however very often from my understanding, there isn't a HoS, and many times no AI. You can also have understaffed departments, which means an officer could be waiting forever to get into someplace, or not at all.

Perhaps this more takes place on three, but I rarely see the security team isolated from the rest of the crew. Most officers will maintain patrols, and I always encourage them to stop and talk to people/the departments on the way, and I don't typically see officers leaving their lane. Not to diminish the direction of this thread, (and I say this entirely with absolute respect, and I mean no offense if this was not the intention of the thread) but it does seem like this goes back to the "sec vs. antags" discussions that come up a lot. "Sec is too strong/weak, give them this or take away that" with the same being brought up for antags. For me personally, I think as it is now is a good balance. Both sides have good tools and methods, while security remains a present threat (imo, a balanced one.)

[DisturbHerb]

Dredging up a previous discussion on the matter, but having a station alert level system with Security access being tied to it was a prior proposal that was suggested... at some time. [citation needed]

[Silent Majority]

We still have low pop.. even on 3 sometimes we have no ai or.command. asking people for help.is fine. Ive also had to wait 20s minutes for a captain to answer a yes/no question.  Or 10 for someone to give me an eyepatch.

Having securities access be limited would mostly lead to a loss of trust towards sec. Example

SEC TO SCI
open the door!
LING CANT
OPEN THE DOOR AI
ai is afk
Dead chat be filled with cry of shit sec.

While i undetstand that our level of access is high and thats not desirable on rp.there is an expectation and level ability that often gets expected of security or the staff starts spitting vitriol at us.

Fuether if antags can defeat us by a botanist ahutting a door this could create alot of frustration

While I feel the idea is good, i fear the result would be sec offs walking around with hacking tools and insuls or aa cards, which is worse then them just having access theu dont need.

Feel free to cut them.outta the non sec clothing vendors and the kitchen vend and boyany vend

[Kotlol]

I like to add something to the "why we shouldn't change this"

There are ways to stop securities by hacking doors and locking them off. Cutting AI control and such.
Now you can do your work till someone fixes the door wich is Engineering. Security won't fix doors on the fly.

The problems arise is when someone in a solo department does this and then security has no reason to check it.
Now imagine this being done every shift...
What will you do as security? Become a Securigneer. Cause antags are winning by this technicality. So yea....

By taking away the access, security will just adapt to do things they don't need others.

[Cal]

Could testmerge it

[Waffleloffle]

an issue I see with testmerging things like this to test them out is that there's not really any designated area to put feedback on said testmerge without commenting on the github page itself, which requires an account. I feel like a lot of the active players affected by said testmerges don't know where to leave their feedback, and as such, end up keeping it to themselves because of this. I feel like for such a major change, it would be best to have that testmerge directly point to a place to leave feedback

[Cal]

an issue I see with testmerging things like this to test them out is that there's not really any designated area to put feedback on said testmerge without commenting on the github page itself, which requires an account. I feel like a lot of the active players affected by said testmerges don't know where to leave their feedback, and as such, end up keeping it to themselves because of this. I feel like for such a major change, it would be best to have that testmerge directly point to a place to leave feedback

Well we can use the forums for that

[Ikea]

I believe that removing the extended access from security, will just cause security to find an AA on the slightest sign of trouble, like it happens on other servers that have limited access for sec. 

Classic sec basically never does this, I hope that roleplay sec can behave better then classic sec because if not theres some issues there

[Lord_earthfire]

I think a system like this could work really well. We have already something akin to this implemented for the armory (and i am happy to see an uptick in armory authentifications recently).

I think giving the ability to uptick the severity by command or automatically based on number of deaths would be a good thing. Command is in control of the station and they are the control instance of security. So it makes sense to give them authority about how much danger the station is currently facing and how much access security needs.

Of course we need a vote-based override based on amount of security officers. Like we have with the armory.

A system such as this would probably work well for classic as well. Just with different tweaked access on the low levels, of course. This would enable us to attach other mechanics (e.g. the emergency shuttle) to it as well.

Most importantly, i think a system such as this gives the crew very important inforamtion. On RP it is kinda rare to release the crew upon the antags, but security raising the bar to the highest emergency rating gives the crew the very important signal to arm up.

[Silent Majority]

I believe that removing the extended access from security, will just cause security to find an AA on the slightest sign of trouble, like it happens on other servers that have limited access for sec. 

Classic sec basically never does this, I hope that roleplay sec can behave better then classic sec because if not theres some issues there

Aa gets handsd out fairly.liberallg door wites get cut.conatantly and expectations are different.

[Ikea]

I believe that removing the extended access from security, will just cause security to find an AA on the slightest sign of trouble, like it happens on other servers that have limited access for sec. 

Classic sec basically never does this, I hope that roleplay sec can behave better then classic sec because if not theres some issues there

Aa gets handsd out fairly.liberallg door wites get cut.conatantly and expectations are different.

Its definitely not unheard of for sec to get AA, but most sec offs on classic arent itching at there teeth to grab AA. If classic sec can restrain themselves from going to HoP to ask for AA to help with there job, RP sec can do so too.

[DasBrain]

An other idea might be to restrict individual Security Officers to a department:

* A security officer can choose a department at the start of the shift.
* Their ID gets some additional access for that department.

The rest is up to the security team:
* Talking about who takes which department.
* Letting the other officers without access in that department in.

Also, I am for changing the access for the crematorium doors to morgue access (so they still can't use the machine, but can go into the room again.)