The Roboticist's Dilemma

[Waffleloffle]

roboticist has always felt like a bit of a half-baked role. they're not as well-equipped for medical work as a standard doctor, but they never really have many concrete responsibilities once the AI has a functional shell. they get turned to for cybernetic surgery, sure, but the only thing really making that their job is the fact that the robotics fabricator is behind their door. with the increase of silicon self-sufficiency as of late, roboticists have found themselves with fewer and fewer things to do for the station, which I find to be a massive shame

one could argue that roboticists may simply be doomed to the same fate as mechanics: being folded into a more fleshed-out role at some point due to their lack of unique station tasks. I'd like to find a way to prevent that. I'm a fan of the roboticist role for several reasons - conceptually there's a lot of potential, the uniform's really cool, it's a pretty good Starter Medical role, it's nice to have a role that can keep Human Players and Silicon Players from stratifying into two separate groups, et cetera et cetera. there's a lot to like, on paper. the issue is that, in practice, their niche is very shallow at best

my main question for this thread is: how can we expand the capabilities of roboticists while maintaining synergy with both silicons and the organic members of the station? I think a nice starting point would be giving them a console that gives them a list of every active silicon on-station, along with serial numbers and every name that silicon's been under, and maybe their last recorded location on-station (though this may be a pretty large balance concern). something like this could be useful both in the case of locating emagged/compromised borgs, or reclaiming the parts of one broken by an antag's destruction. either way, let me know what you think and feel free to pitch your own ideas too

[pali6]

My take is that silicons should not be self-sufficient. Ideally upgrades, repairs etc. would all need a roboticist. Also ideally there'd just be more sidegrades and stuff for the roboticist to actually make.

Frankly I think we should move guardbuddy stuff under robotics. Then we could work on some way for silicons to better interface with buddies (giving them commands etc.) and expand on how modular buddies can be?

> a console that gives them a list of every active silicon on-station

That feels like it overlaps with the functions of the current Robotics Control console. We should probably put more info into it and then put one in robotics with kill switch disabled?

[unfunnyperson]

I think a new mechanic/upgrade of some kind would do wonders to make roboticist more interesting. Something cant just be done by medical(like cyberorgans)

I have 2 ideas

1. Power armor
Suits of armor designed for station activities that provide a massive amount of slowdown but provide unique resistances and abilities. For example: A suit of power armor could be built that provides complete immunity to fire, cold, and vacuums. Would also give something cool for antag roboticists to do, built a death suit and go around punching people to death.

2. Advanced Cyberorgans
Cyberorgans that can be extensively modified, You could make a heart beat faster or slower to provide different buffs or configure what chems a cyberappendix produces. Maybe replace the medical fab's cyberogans with bad versions to encourage going to robotics.

[TDHooligan]

could make it so borg upgrades get slotted into different parts of the body. then hypothetically you would have a good way to have trans-humanism too, where arm/leg upgrades can be put into humans too. robotics spend their time performing 'surgery' on loose robot limbs and attaching them to borgs, medbay spends their time doing surgery on people.

[Terms-On-Dragon]

My take is that silicons should not be self-sufficient. Ideally upgrades, repairs etc. would all need a roboticist. Also ideally there'd just be more sidegrades and stuff for the roboticist to actually make.

Frankly I think we should move guardbuddy stuff under robotics. Then we could work on some way for silicons to better interface with buddies (giving them commands etc.) and expand on how modular buddies can be?

I may agree with the upgrades, as it can be quite easy to simply slot in some powerful modules without a single hand of the roboticist. Though some self-sustainability should be available, perhaps having the docking station require upgrades to be inserted by human hands as if a module needs to be inserted into a rewriter. Possibly having the dock station slowly repair damages instead of instantly fixing them.

It would be nice to have roboticsts not be bound to their one part of the station to be useful, perhaps serving as a paramedic for cyborgs around the station. Could have a tool that lets them give some immediate charge to a cyborg, so they have enough to work for just a little bit more, or to retreat to a nearby docking station.

I would not know much about robuddies, so maybe a more advanced roboticist can remotely do some simple tasks without having to go there themselves? Maybe the robuddies can even be used to retrieve the brains of fallen silicon?

[Dhaidburt]

My take is that silicons should not be self-sufficient. Ideally upgrades, repairs etc. would all need a roboticist. Also ideally there'd just be more sidegrades and stuff for the roboticist to actually make.

Frankly I think we should move guardbuddy stuff under robotics. Then we could work on some way for silicons to better interface with buddies (giving them commands etc.) and expand on how modular buddies can be?

> a console that gives them a list of every active silicon on-station

That feels like it overlaps with the functions of the current Robotics Control console. We should probably put more info into it and then put one in robotics with kill switch disabled?

Considering that science barely ever touches guardbuddy stuff despite it all being in their department, I feel like this is a great swapup. Science has to talk to robotics or cargo now~
If this does happen though, any chance we could see cyborg guardbuddies? Obviously you can't walk through them and people could mistake them for players, but still an idea.

If we were to add such a console, I think it'd be great to see the last known location of a borg's brain in case they're ever destroyed. Having the roboticist relay this info or go out and search themselves would be a great way to involve them in the rounds.

could make it so borg upgrades get slotted into different parts of the body. then hypothetically you would have a good way to have trans-humanism too, where arm/leg upgrades can be put into humans too. robotics spend their time performing 'surgery' on loose robot limbs and attaching them to borgs, medbay spends their time doing surgery on people.

Interesting idea, but I think the only slightly balanced upgrade would be the shields for a duration on a cooldown. it's probably the only upgrade that isn't just eyes or replaces worn equipment with something unremovable.

It would be nice to have roboticsts not be bound to their one part of the station to be useful, perhaps serving as a paramedic for cyborgs around the station.  Could have a tool that lets them give some immediate charge to a cyborg, so they have enough to work for just a little bit more, or to retreat to a nearby docking station.

Yaknow, I like the idea of being able to go around and baby the robots. Charge them a little, oil them up, pat them on the head, maybe repair them a little and send them on their way. Considering there's a possible 3 roboticists at once in certain maps this'd be at least a little more interesting than instantly changing jobs.

[Lord_earthfire]

My take is that silicons should not be self-sufficient. Ideally upgrades, repairs etc. would all need a roboticist. Also ideally there'd just be more sidegrades and stuff for the roboticist to actually make.

Frankly I think we should move guardbuddy stuff under robotics. Then we could work on some way for silicons to better interface with buddies (giving them commands etc.) and expand on how modular buddies can be?

> a console that gives them a list of every active silicon on-station

That feels like it overlaps with the functions of the current Robotics Control console. We should probably put more info into it and then put one in robotics with kill switch disabled?

Overall agree. I think moving robobuddies to research would be a good idea. Also, modular borg modules would really help.

But in general, robotocist suffers because the ease if cloning and the self-sufficiency of borgs.

Personally, i though about implants. Modular, heck, maybe even mechcomp-compatible implants would work for robotocists. Medbay is about people-enhancing, see genetics. So that angle can work.

[Love]

with the increase of silicon self-sufficiency as of late, roboticists have found themselves with fewer and fewer things to do for the station, which I find to be a massive shame

I cannot brain what changes have been made to make silicons more self-sufficient in the last few years? Unless I'm forgetting one, other than being able to change your name. And that was a damned good change. Because you shouldn't have to rely on the sufferance of others to have a basic identity in a multiplayer game. Especially on Classic where the quality of roboticists is often... dubious.

I know that I, for one, will speak out against any enormous clawbacks on silicon roles to enhance the roboticist job. For whatever little that means. Because, frankly, there are generally more silicons than roboticists. And certainly far more silicons than attentive roboticists that will step up to these responsibilities. And giving a roboticist thirty seconds more work in a round will often mean ten or twenty minutes of one or multiple silicon player being useless and having a crappy shift. And that seems like a really, really bad trade.

I mean, repair changes, to make humans more required? Sure. That's fine. You can always drag a welder or wire coil up to a human and beg, if no roboticists are around. Borgs often have to do that with limbs, once you're past early shift and the roboticists have evaporated. But beyond that, meh.

E x p a n d i n g the roboticist role, however, would be lovely. Giving them guardbuddies would be neat. It always seemed more roboticisty to me anyway.
And I'd always be for any power armor/mech suit/cybernetic additions, that often get talked about when speaking of expanding the roboticist role. That's what usually gets brought up when this topic rolls around every few months. But so far, no coders have been interested. And I think there's worry about it being too much like other codebases roboticists, with the mech/powersuits.

Alternatively, we could just give them a burn mender, so they can staff medbay more, when it's quiet, I guess. But that seems a little meh.

[Cal]

I cannot brain what changes have been made to make silicons more self-sufficient in the last few years? Unless I'm forgetting one, other than being able to change your name.

Being able to drag modules to the Pc themselves iirc, being able to change their own name, battery, install their own upgrades, print off their own parts (just need to bark at someone to assemble it)

[Retrino]

i don't see decreasing self sufficiency of borgs as a very good solution to helping flesh out their responsibilities more. for one, what does module swapping and upgrade installing really add to roboticist interactions? a whole lot of "hey install this thing. k thx bye". see: cell installation. unless they're doing it manually by opening the borg up, its a one click thing that often times doesnt even require more than one sentence of interaction between roboticist and silicon. honestly, i wouldnt mind if cell replacements Always had to be done by hand. repairs as well, since theyre pretty trivial to do with the dock and give little downside to a borg who's using light limbs.

there seems to be very little meat to the department outside of the borgs themselves, which is why i think this often comes up. medical fabs print cyberorgans. they often dont even need robotics to do transplants, unless a limb is missing. there are some interesting suggestions in this thread, but i'm very much against decreasing qol things like simple mod installs to give them something to do. after all, it... really isnt that involved of a system, so its tedious to both people involved. self sufficient borgs aren't the problem, its that borgs are basically the Only Thing roboticists have.

[Splints]

I'm not sure that making cyborgs more dependent on roboticists would actually make more fun for the roboticists. At least if that just means reducing the things the cyborgs can do now. A lot of those things are simple one click actions. I don't think dumping more "I need you to press one button for me" tasks on roboticists will fix the issue. 

To me what makes roles fun is when you can use some creativity to do your job really well or some sort of challenge that you can use skill to overcome. The former is where engineer shines and the latter is medical doctor among others. Roboticists have tasks that neither allow for creativity nor are particularly challenging. The role just becomes boring if you can't find a way to make your own fun, and you don't really have much access to things that allow you to make your own fun.

I don't think there is a quick fix for making roboticist fun. Simply passing around duties isn't going to cut it. The two things I would thing would do the most are to make cyborg fixing more complex and add some time pressure as the cyborg falls apart like how medical has to race against the clock to save people. The other would be to make the small robots systems (bucket bot/fire bot/etc.) a more customizable system where you can build your own that does cool things based on what you built it with. I don't expect either of these to be all that easy to implement.

@Cal
They still can't change their own battery. But I believe they can do the rest of those now.

[Kotlol]

My idea for roboticist is the fact they need to "TINKER" more.

Just like mechanics/engineers can tinker.
This kinda stuff the robotcist needs to do.

My suggestion are followed:
- Give them Robuddy access of science.
It never made sense that science has this let alone they can be programmed by science. It feels like a ROBOTCIST JOB!
Also scientists BARELY use this. Maybe traitors or the packet nerd in science. But other wise... 90% of the time nothing happens to them.

- Tinkering with cyborg parts.
imagine a mining borg wanting to be as useful as an organic miner with an upgraded bohrum mining hammer.
Now they can. It will cost them 1 slot permanently, but the robotcist can now make "Tool arms"
Wich can be upgraded and such to give Cyborgs access to new tools and ways but they give up 1 tool slot permanently for it.
And yes we will allow guns and batons and such to be attached to the cyborg arms. But remember by doing so.. is like surgically adding the tool to someone's arm.

- Custom Modules
This option should been unlocked, but was probably removed for a reason.
THAT SAID... you can make the standard modules be better. no matter what to custom ones.

Example: You have 50 Capacity on a module.
Standardized ones have 100 and cannot be tinkered.
Each tool has a certain amount of capacity, the better the item, the more capacity it takes.
Also you can eventually get better "custom modules" but those require specific materials.

This way we can have custom borgs again, but not be overpowered. And make playing a cyborg abit more fun and give the robotcist more flexiability.

These are the "simple" things the robotcist I think they need.

[Waffleloffle]

And yes we will allow guns and batons and such to be attached to the cyborg arms. But remember by doing so.. is like surgically adding the tool to someone's arm.

absolutely not lmao can you fucking IMAGINE a world where borgs with actual weapons are allowed?? you'd get hordes of validhunters with all access wiping out any Nonhuman Threats they can detect. it would be utterly miserable

--

with regards to borg self-sufficiency, I tried to word the original post to not target it as Something That Needs Fixing. most forms of borgs being able to do things for themselves are quite good (the only one I feel is kinda Much is self-healing, but at the same time I can also see the need for it) and I agree that, yeah, arbitrarily removing the ability for borgs to do x, y, and z just so a roboticist needs to be called over to spend a few seconds doing it is not Good Job Design. roboticists are tied to borg wellbeing, but I think the current shallowness of borgs themselves is a pretty big gate towards the potential of the roboticist role in turn. it's easy to say "I would love to see this expanded" but it takes a lot of time, effort, and ingenuity to actually expand these systems meaningfully, I suppose. there's been some pretty good prospects so far, though

[Kotlol]

And yes we will allow guns and batons and such to be attached to the cyborg arms. But remember by doing so.. is like surgically adding the tool to someone's arm.

absolutely not lmao can you fucking IMAGINE a world where borgs with actual weapons are allowed?? you'd get hordes of validhunters with all access wiping out any Nonhuman Threats they can detect. it would be utterly miserable

A: they need a robotcist to do it.
B: Their ammo doesnt get restored unless the robotcist reloads them / charges them.
C: Do you know how hard it is to get ammo/weapons for cyborgs?
D: If you fear scrap weapons (valid concern), We can just add items that cannot be tooled on. Simple as that.
E: It's not like valid hunting cyborgs won't just saw/stab/fire-extinguish people anyway. Giving them a gun/tazer/baton that runs out and they cannot reload unless the robotcist takes the arm off and reloads it for them... is just more of a hassle.

If anything this is more a buff for antag borgs/robotcists. Who can install weapon arms on their evil borgs to exterminate all NT.
Though doing this makes it VERY OBIVIOUS a robotcist is a traitor doing this.

This was more ment to allow more customsation and buff borgs abit.

Yes giving a borg a gun is a valid concern, but when you think about it....it's easy to stun a borg, break the arm and even then... the borg cannot RECHARGE or RELOAD the weapons.

[Wisemonster]

One thing I noticed is that roboticists don't really have much that people want. For example, on other servers, roboticist can build things that people want/could use, such as mechs and mod suits. On Goon, people usually only need roboticist to replace a failing organ, and occasionally want an organ upgraded just for the upgrade itself. This also ties into roboticist having something to do. With the former example, roboticist can choose to either build mechs, modsuits, simple bots, and/or cyborgs (all of which can be controlled by ghost roles and/or pAIs), while goon roboticist can build bots and cyborgs, of which cyborgs can only be late-joined if using the late-join brain. Another thing is the simple bots on goon are a lot more limited. While on other servers, just about any bot can be set to patrol the station, the only bots that can patrol on goon are beepskies and robuddies, of which only 1 roboticist can actually build.