Borg Pronouns In Robotic Comnands

[Caio029]

We definitely are over examining it, but it's one of those things like Lizardmen. Are they Humans spliced with animal DNA? Are they aliens?
Say it's one or the other and you interfere with people's idea of who their character is, or how the universe they live in works.

I'd like it if we can reconcile all the separate kinds of thought on it, and implement it in a way that satisfies the most people

I think an important point we should hit back on that there should be a healthy separation between the player and the character. Maybe there should be ooc player pronoun indicators that's separate from the individual characters?

I feel like players should still refer to IC pronouns. After all, it is the player who's choosing the pronouns, and they will probably want to switch pronouns for different characters.

[TDHooligan]

I think an important point we should hit back on that there should be a healthy separation between the player and the character. Maybe there should be ooc player pronoun indicators that's separate from the individual characters?

i spent a long time thinking on this, but honestly this solves most my issues i have on both sides. creating a visible concept of an OOC pronoun would implicitly create a barrier between player and character, and provide representation for the player.

[Lord_earthfire]

i spent a long time thinking on this, but honestly this solves most my issues i have on both sides. creating a visible concept of an OOC pronoun would implicitly create a barrier between player and character, and provide representation for the player.

I agree. I kinda like the idea.

[Kotlol]

We did over analysis this and TDH's suggestion is not bad, but it feels half way.

So after re-reading things. I'd like to add and clarify some concerns shown by the community that I now just perfectly notice.
(again I am for this addition, but let me phraze this so I can help things out.)

Let me say this: "Borging is suppose to be "BAD" and a last thing you want to do."
Those who want to be a cyborg, need to consider the gameplay limitations they get.
Thus losing a gender and making them more dehumanizing is suppose to be a state of mind you get set in.
Yet we allow personalities, custom names and customsation, but at the same time we remove gender and restrict them by laws and unable to wear everything like shoes and such.
Thus.. who cares about genders.. but I like to use the Lizardman argument and move it to another level.. Monkeys.

Monkey players always needs genetics to change them, we do not allow them at entry due to various reasons but also "Monkey is suppose to be bad"

And in jobs it's "Clown suppose to be bad"

And in traits "Pug is suppose to be bad."

Gameplay wise these all are suppose to be choices or outcomes that are ment to handicap you or give you a disadvantage. Socially or gameplay wise.
And yet through out the years... this all has been changed to be looser and more welcoming.
Mutant races, no longer are treated as non humans.
Monkeys get the "Sentient" sub title to be defined as human.
Pugs are iniating your own personal hard mode...

So this concern of adding gender feels like a nudge into giving borgs things that might be considered a step to making borgs "less a bad outcome"
Like a monkey being a spawning trait with a translator. Or a clown having a paycheck. (How I like to compare it, not the best but hey)
But also how "important" is gender as a borg? Especially since human players can "order it away?" and being a jerk (cause they are playing a borg hating antagonist, remember conspirators have a goal to get rid of all electricity)

Now to add to TDH's suggestion.
While it would please both sides.. It doesn't.
It infact makes both sides upset.
Cause those who will ignore the OOC gender, will just keep saying it, thus disrespecting the player.
And those same people who will ignore it, will be slammed, since they want to RP someone who disrespects Cyborg players, annoying them.
Let alone how much admins will have to treat on the greyline, upsetting both parties along the way.

I still recommend going with a full IC addition and the reason being: "Cyborgs are genderfluid and assigning them a gender helps organics to not be afraid of them"
So lore wise, they have genders so they are slightly more humanized so people who have fear of borgs can relate to them better. You can see it as NT doing this to "decrease fear of cyborgs taking over their jobs" kinda hook.

I think TDH's suggestion is 100% Noble... it's a non pleaser that just makes more problems in the long run.
Either players have to 100% disconnect their cyborgs treatment from real life (wich is how I do things)
Or.. we just allow it and accept that the way you treat your fellow IC crewmates might rub off on other players in real life. (Wich is also a valid point)

This is the true crutch of the argument. "Dissaccioation vs Connecting to your charater"
I know this sounds too deep, but.. this is why half half won't do this.

[jan.antilles]

This thread has gone far afield of the original posted idea, into very deep and turbulent waters, and I'd like to move it back.

The simple answer to the currently identified problem (if a borg is rebuilt, the previously selected pronouns are not saved) is easily fixed by Pali's suggestion of having a cyborg character pull from the pronouns saved in the mind. This eliminates the need to add more menus anywhere.

I personally have no interest in making player pronouns visible during a round. There's already so much information that needs to be communicated in the super-quick environment of Goonstation, and adding yet another variable that people can pay attention to only feels worthwhile if it has immediate gameplay impact. In whatever situations arise that it becomes necessary to communicate player pronouns, then it seems to me like LOOC would be the most useful way to share that information, especially since those messages are shown as coming from the ckey and not the character.

As for the extended conversation about player identity and character identity, I'll work on another post specifically about that, and I'll put it in the Roleplay forum. But to summarize it in advance: your character is not you. It's understandable and normal to empathize with your character, and to feel involved in the social situations created by the game, but it is necessary to work toward separating your character from yourself in order to roleplay in an emotionally healthy way. At its core, SS13 is a game about conflict and deception and betrayal, and if you struggle to separate your own feelings from what happens in a round, you are going to be a lot more emotionally exhausted, and have a lot less fun.

[Silent Majority]

Thank you jan.

[Kotlol]

Thank you jan for the true clear up. Appricaited!

[Caio029]

https://github.com/goonstation/goonstation/pull/15187

Merged 7 hours ago. Good riddance.

[Silent Majority]

Fab ♡