Borg Pronouns In Robotic Comnands

[babywrangler85]

It is a QoL feature because your opinion on how borgs should behave has no basis in lore or the rules. Lots of people on the RP server would very much appreciate this change and borgs already have pronouns just under certain circumstances

If it would be a pure qol feature, we wouldnt have the discussion about lore, potentional abuse by borg laws and character creation. At the point it chsnges how you play/develop your character, it stops being a QOL. It's simply a new feature.

QOL is overused to try to talk down changes with more implications than adding shortcuts.

were discussing lore because you tried to use your own personal opinions as justification for why something shouldn't be added, and we're discussing potential abuse by borg laws because for some reason people came up with scenarios that don't happen and are already covered under the current rule set.

A Borg can already have different pronouns at round start, adding this functionality to late join borgs is a bug fix. The replies to this thread have expanded the scope to talking about allowing humans to change their pronouns at will which is not what this change is and is also already possible.

[Lord_earthfire]

were discussing lore because you tried to use your own personal opinions as justification for why something shouldn't be added, and we're discussing potential abuse by borg laws because for some reason people came up with scenarios that don't happen and are already covered under the current rule set.

Firstly, i was not the first person who voiced concerns with borgs having genders at all, if you would read the thread properly.

Second, surprise, people have their opinion on why stuff should be added, changed or removed. "This feature us abused for powergaming only" has the same quality like "i feel this is a behaviour i don't want to see on RP", and i dont deny that this opinion is on the same stage.

A Borg can already have different pronouns at round start, adding this functionality to late join borgs is a bug fix. The replies to this thread have expanded the scope to talking about allowing humans to change their pronouns at will which is not what this change is and is also already possible.

If you read what i wrote exactly, i agree with pali's suggestion, which is simply a bug fix. My other points were against the suggestion to increase the scope way beyond what is a bug fix.

This is getting very much off-topic now, because of which i probably wont continue this conversation chain.

[babywrangler85]

My other points were against the suggestion to increase the scope way beyond what is a bug fix.

Calling a verb to change a borgs pronouns "way beyond" the scope of a modification to borg pronoun code is hilarious

[Retrino]

to kyle (quoting is hard on mobile so i cant do it correctly): i still sort of disagree with your stance, but i understand your perspective. at the end of the day im not very hard on one side or the other when it comes to humans having a verb like it, so just gonna agree to disagree.

as for the whole “borgs having personalities is a fault” thing, character creation has never been bound to specific game lore, outside of basic do your job or stay in your lane rp rules. there are players behind the “tools”, and despite how lore shapes their origin, something like having a personality or pronouns are bare minimum attributes in an rp setting. absolutely wack hill to stand on

[Silent Majority]

...what established lore is there that they're just tools?

Anyway these discussions about lore implications of borgs having chosen gender nouns is....strange to me?

they allready HAVE gender nouns.

I was just thinking of a way for people with them to keep them.

[Frank_Stein]

In response to frank I think this would be akin to mindhacking someone to force them wear the opposite sex's clothing and behave as a member. IE it'd be a sorta awful thing to do that someone would likely get in trouble for cause that doesn't sound like an action coming from a good place.

I agree. There'd be no good faith reason to do either and would very much come down on the side of "Ignore the person who'd ask it, and adminhelp them for good measure"

I guess more than anything I want to nail down how borgs are regarded in lore when it comes to free will, self identity, and such. I'm for them being more humanized because it does give players more agency and expression in the role.

However, I do feel like mechanics and setting contribute to the idea of them being tools. They're supposed to follow orders given to them, perform requested tasks even to the detriment of their own well being.

...something that comes from the faulty technique of rewiring brains for microprocessors.

This makes for the best explanation reconciling the two. As much as NT would have you believe the borging process eliminates someone's individuality, they're still in there, just under weird electronic software constraints. It's consistent with the rule that a Borg'ed antagonist is still an antagonist even if the laws prevent them from taking harmful actions.

As for the ability to change their gender, well dang I imagine some people would want to change their gender identity after having a radical change to their body. Some people would want to remain what they were when they were fleshy.

[Kotlol]

Time to jump into the discussion.
My opinion on this idea:
"I honestly don't care if this gets implemented or not personally"

Since this is just FLAVORING. It doesn't harm the player base in any way if it's implemented or not.
It doesn't change how the cyborg plays "per say"

THAT SAID.... I would like to add implications that could happen from all this stuff.
Stuff like: "Cyborg rights matter." And we start putting in political stuff I personally rather mock on SS13 at best, but avoid all together.

My problem stems from how the community will use this.
While gameplay wise nothing changes...
Just like any spice or flavoring, if used wrong will ruin a meal.

Do cyborg need to be gendered? Well technically not since they are IT's... the whole point of becoming a cyborg is to be "Dehumanized" in the lore.
No cash income, no reasson to spend money, stuck to the laws of the AI rack and basicly forced to comply to orders that stay within the laws of the Law Rack.
So if lore wise they would be gendered.. as people point out.. you can say:
"Change your gender to "it" Law 2"

Wich could be Ahelped.. but then we get into the whole, can the borg/ai ignore it cause it is "mental harm?" But at the same time... are borgs able to get take mental harm? Since borgs/AI's are suppose to be robots.

It basically become this can of worms you open to open to interpertation cause... people love to interpert things differently wich is why Ahelps happen. (And get resolved peacefully!)

I always say this: "Leave your real life trouble at the door when playing a game, this is a place to escape from it." If you cannot do that... best not to play this game then. And thus this whole gendered thing and control over can become a whole can of worms to some people who struggle with idenity problems and people who are like: "Hah funny borg has to change!"
Note this is probably an outlier then anything but discussion dictates we discuss this issue.

Also how would one update the gender of a cyborg and such??

In the end I say this:
"Just add this thing, it doesn't harm the gameplay so why go so hard on it"
But.. I am aware of the situation it will cause and questions that will be asked.

But personally:
"Who the fuck cares? Don't be an asshole about it."

Just add a prompt in the cyborg charger to change their gender. Gender is what you feel... and no matter how much we try to play cyborgs right.. we always play cyborgs by FEELING it out, so if you want to play a gender cyborg who sees themselves as female since "Female nurses are the most optimal way" Let them.

[Silent Majority]

To Frank, the thing is they HAVE genders.  They just lose them via being mid round or having maint done.

Letting them have genders isn't going to make "cyber rights!!!11!" Its going to be letting a sapient and sentient character played by a real human get a 2-3 letter description of their choice when doing things  in an 18 year old game.

To be honest i see no reason anyone can't change their gender identity at will.  All of this guff over nouns seems odd

Going further still, borgs are that. Borgs. Cyborgs. A human made mechanical, partially. Theres zero lore indication the original person is gone or deleted. They're just compelled to follow the same rules everyone is. Don't kill peeps. Do what your boss says. Work. Try not to die. 

If we want them to be entirely mechanical make ghost brains.

[Kotlol]

Letting them have genders isn't going to make "cyber rights!!!11!" Its going to be letting a sapient and sentient character played by a real human get a 2-3 letter description of their choice when doing things  in an 18 year old game.

To be honest i see no reason anyone can't change their gender identity at will.  All of this guff over nouns seems odd

Essentially yes, but remember Goon likes to be goofy and such. I remember the days people used announcement to shout Trans Rights as an employee in the servers like it was the best thing ever... But to me it was tiring, cause in the roleplay server... SS13 already allows it? And OOC the community accepts this? We have litteral jump suits to wear whenever now to support that.

It's this kinda behaviour I see resurfacing but on Cyborgs, who are seen in the game as "ambigious"

And as someone who once roleplayed as a Captain that used "You will all be replaced by Cyborgs if you fail your job" bit once. I can safely say some people "like" to play that cyborgs are just "objects" to order around.

Also Cyber Rights... uuhm.. about that.. there are goals for the good ole "non antag" who disrupts things (Miscreant)... who as I might add has the objective: "Fight for equal rights for Cyborgs."
Though I haven't seen them in a while (or been one). So they could been removed and I didn't notice (nor do I care)

But it paints a history. I see no reason for guff around this and to just be added cause: "Who cares? No harm no foul."
But here we are... posting late in a 2 page discussion wich spiked in less then 24 hours. Wich means... THERE IS REASONS TO DEBATE AND THINK ABOUT.

Anyway I'll wait what the admins/devs write down on the server rules about this and implement it.

[LuciliusMothboy]

To everyone who is against this change, I find it important to point out that there are PLAYERS behind the borgs. At the end of the day, this feature is meant for the comfort of the players themselves, I feel.

We have plenty of transgender and nonbinary people who are part of our player base. I'm trans myself, and I have dysphoria. Believe it or not, being misgendered IC or forced IC to use pronouns that I don't want to does in fact trigger my dysphoria.

And I don't feel it's fair to treat that as the player being at fault.

Regardless of borg "lore", I think both the freedom of expression and comfort of the players themselves takes precedence. I don't see a problem with borgs being able to change pronouns whenever they want, either, because they can't go to the HoP and ask for the pronouns on their ID to be changed in the middle of the round, because they do not have IDs.

Furthermore, many borgs in lore have a human brain. They speak, most people portray them with emotions, they are sapient in their own way, even if they're not human, so naturally some would have developed preferred pronouns. The ones with human brains have a human brain. And the ones that don't are still sapient and are exposed to human social groupings.

So to me, there's no lore issue, either.

But I digress, my point is; This is a game we play to have fun, and because of that, PLAYER comfort and enjoyment is INCREDIBLY important. This is also a game people roleplay on, so they should be allowed freedom to have their characters have the identity that they wish for them to have.

[Caio029]

Hey, while this is about inclusivity which I understand, they are robots... they're an it. I don't think robots have pronouns or genders or anything like that right ? It's a machine. Seems a bit silly to give it pronouns. Though this change is fairly minor and wouldn't impact the game at all so. Just my two cents .

Nah, in the lore, NanoTrasen's cyborgs and AI mix biological stuff with mechanical stuff to actually make it's artificial intelligence work like it works. Cyborgs having personality is a side-effect of that, and with personality, there could be pronouns. In my point of view, the lore already supports cyborg having genders.

[Lord_earthfire]

To everyone who is against this change, I find it important to point out that there are PLAYERS behind the borgs. At the end of the day, this feature is meant for the comfort of the players themselves, I feel.

We have plenty of transgender and nonbinary people who are part of our player base. I'm trans myself, and I have dysphoria. Believe it or not, being misgendered IC or forced IC to use pronouns that I don't want to does in fact trigger my dysphoria.

And I don't feel it's fair to treat that as the player being at fault.

Regardless of borg "lore", I think both the freedom of expression and comfort of the players themselves takes precedence. I don't see a problem with borgs being able to change pronouns whenever they want, either, because they can't go to the HoP and ask for the pronouns on their ID to be changed in the middle of the round, because they do not have IDs.

Furthermore, many borgs in lore have a human brain. They speak, most people portray them with emotions, they are sapient in their own way, even if they're not human, so naturally some would have developed preferred pronouns. The ones with human brains have a human brain. And the ones that don't are still sapient and are exposed to human social groupings.

So to me, there's no lore issue, either.

But I digress, my point is; This is a game we play to have fun, and because of that, PLAYER comfort and enjoyment is INCREDIBLY important. This is also a game people roleplay on, so they should be allowed freedom to have their characters have the identity that they wish for them to have.

These are mostly the reasons why i support the change pali suggested. Even though i personally don't like all the implication tied to it and the break with most sci-fi tropes that try to as much as possible keep AI and in extend borgs dehumanized.

We are a very inclusive community and thus our MRP community is on the low-RP area of the RP-spectrum.

The point i wanted to make was to simply be more limited for borgs than it is for humans. Borgs are, in contrast to humans, not free-willed. That is why i don't think it should be changed freely at-will.

Amd at that point it went a bit offtopic/downhill due to miscommunication.

What i can see, though, is coupling that with the name-change of the borg. After you change your name, like after being borged, you can select your prefered gender. It is tied to the name-change cooldown. Kinda like the menu work when you select a name and gender for the agent ID. No new verb needed, it get attached to an already existing one.

A name change for AI/Borgs is very often either accompanied with a personality/programming(law?) change or for the time you got borged and received a random name. It makes sense that a radical change in perception by name can be accompanied with a change in the prefered pronoun. And the cooldown on the name change limits its use to actually meaningfull changes in the borg.

Also, most opportunities to change names already offer to chsnge preferred pronouns, so this is consistent with current behaviour.

Personally, i would appreciate it if i can connect a name with a pronoun and don't need to check each time if it randomly got changed. Because, sadly, i am pretty sure that random changing for pranks or gimmicks will happen if we just make it an unlimited verb.

[LuciliusMothboy]

To everyone who is against this change, I find it important to point out that there are PLAYERS behind the borgs. At the end of the day, this feature is meant for the comfort of the players themselves, I feel.

We have plenty of transgender and nonbinary people who are part of our player base. I'm trans myself, and I have dysphoria. Believe it or not, being misgendered IC or forced IC to use pronouns that I don't want to does in fact trigger my dysphoria.

And I don't feel it's fair to treat that as the player being at fault.

Regardless of borg "lore", I think both the freedom of expression and comfort of the players themselves takes precedence. I don't see a problem with borgs being able to change pronouns whenever they want, either, because they can't go to the HoP and ask for the pronouns on their ID to be changed in the middle of the round, because they do not have IDs.

Furthermore, many borgs in lore have a human brain. They speak, most people portray them with emotions, they are sapient in their own way, even if they're not human, so naturally some would have developed preferred pronouns. The ones with human brains have a human brain. And the ones that don't are still sapient and are exposed to human social groupings.

So to me, there's no lore issue, either.

But I digress, my point is; This is a game we play to have fun, and because of that, PLAYER comfort and enjoyment is INCREDIBLY important. This is also a game people roleplay on, so they should be allowed freedom to have their characters have the identity that they wish for them to have.

These are mostly the reasons why i support the change pali suggested. Even though i personally don't like all the implication tied to it and the break with most sci-fi tropes that try to as much as possible keep AI and in extend borgs dehumanized.

We are a very inclusive community and thus our MRP community is on the low-RP area of the RP-spectrum.

The point i wanted to make was to simply be more limited for borgs than it is for humans. Borgs are, in contrast to humans, not free-willed. That is why i don't think it should be changed freely at-will.

Amd at that point it went a bit offtopic/downhill due to miscommunication.

What i can see, though, is coupling that with the name-change of the borg. After you change your name, like after being borged, you can select your prefered gender. It is tied to the name-change cooldown. Kinda like the menu work when you select a name and gender for the agent ID. No new verb needed, it get attached to an already existing one.

A name change for AI/Borgs is very often either accompanied with a personality/programming(law?) change or for the time you got borged and received a random name. It makes sense that a radical change in perception by name can be accompanied with a change in the prefered pronoun. And the cooldown on the name change limits its use to actually meaningfull changes in the borg.

Also, most opportunities to change names already offer to chsnge preferred pronouns, so this is consistent with current behaviour.

Personally, i would appreciate it if i can connect a name with a pronoun and don't need to check each time if it randomly got changed. Because, sadly, i am pretty sure that random changing for pranks or gimmicks will happen if we just make it an unlimited verb.

Yeah that's fair enough I feel!

[Silent Majority]

To everyone who is against this change, I find it important to point out that there are PLAYERS behind the borgs. At the end of the day, this feature is meant for the comfort of the players themselves, I feel.

We have plenty of transgender and nonbinary people who are part of our player base. I'm trans myself, and I have dysphoria. Believe it or not, being misgendered IC or forced IC to use pronouns that I don't want to does in fact trigger my dysphoria.

And I don't feel it's fair to treat that as the player being at fault.

Regardless of borg "lore", I think both the freedom of expression and comfort of the players themselves takes precedence. I don't see a problem with borgs being able to change pronouns whenever they want, either, because they can't go to the HoP and ask for the pronouns on their ID to be changed in the middle of the round, because they do not have IDs.

Furthermore, many borgs in lore have a human brain. They speak, most people portray them with emotions, they are sapient in their own way, even if they're not human, so naturally some would have developed preferred pronouns. The ones with human brains have a human brain. And the ones that don't are still sapient and are exposed to human social groupings.

So to me, there's no lore issue, either.

But I digress, my point is; This is a game we play to have fun, and because of that, PLAYER comfort and enjoyment is INCREDIBLY important. This is also a game people roleplay on, so they should be allowed freedom to have their characters have the identity that they wish for them to have.

These are mostly the reasons why i support the change pali suggested. Even though i personally don't like all the implication tied to it and the break with most sci-fi tropes that try to as much as possible keep AI and in extend borgs dehumanized.

We are a very inclusive community and thus our MRP community is on the low-RP area of the RP-spectrum.

The point i wanted to make was to simply be more limited for borgs than it is for humans. Borgs are, in contrast to humans, not free-willed. That is why i don't think it should be changed freely at-will.

Amd at that point it went a bit offtopic/downhill due to miscommunication.

What i can see, though, is coupling that with the name-change of the borg. After you change your name, like after being borged, you can select your prefered gender. It is tied to the name-change cooldown. Kinda like the menu work when you select a name and gender for the agent ID. No new verb needed, it get attached to an already existing one.

A name change for AI/Borgs is very often either accompanied with a personality/programming(law?) change or for the time you got borged and received a random name. It makes sense that a radical change in perception by name can be accompanied with a change in the prefered pronoun. And the cooldown on the name change limits its use to actually meaningfull changes in the borg.

Also, most opportunities to change names already offer to chsnge preferred pronouns, so this is consistent with current behaviour.

Personally, i would appreciate it if i can connect a name with a pronoun and don't need to check each time if it randomly got changed. Because, sadly, i am pretty sure that random changing for pranks or gimmicks will happen if we just make it an unlimited verb.

Borgs/droids have genders in star trek star wars dune Warhammer 40k terminator battleatar farscape lost in space hitchhikers guide red dwarf....

A complex personality, which our borgs have, usually leads to a complex identity 

Again. Thie borgs  ALLREADY HAVE NOUNS. They just LOSE those under a certain,  set,  circumstances which seems more like accident.

Tldr, this is for player comfort not creating social movement. I see zero reason any player should  not be allowed to express themself aa they feel is best. I really think we are over examining this

[Frank_Stein]

We definitely are over examining it, but it's one of those things like Lizardmen. Are they Humans spliced with animal DNA? Are they aliens?
Say it's one or the other and you interfere with people's idea of who their character is, or how the universe they live in works.

I'd like it if we can reconcile all the separate kinds of thought on it, and implement it in a way that satisfies the most people

I think an important point we should hit back on that there should be a healthy separation between the player and the character. Maybe there should be ooc player pronoun indicators that's separate from the individual characters?