Borg Pronouns In Robotic Comnands

[Silent Majority]

A simple thing.

Give borgs the ability to set their pronouns in the robot command tag, like they set face expressions with screen monitors.

Should be a minimal effort and reward of allowing people to get their prefered pronouns.

Could also add we/their/them for hive mind borgs!

[The Specimen]

Hey, while this is about inclusivity which I understand, they are robots... they're an it. I don't think robots have pronouns or genders or anything like that right ? It's a machine. Seems a bit silly to give it pronouns. Though this change is fairly minor and wouldn't impact the game at all so. Just my two cents .

[Dhaidburt]

Eh, I feel like it's important to at least consider the possibility of pronoun changes. Letting a cyborg change their pronouns as the round progresses could be an interesting bit of internal roleplay depending on how you view the pronounds. Or letting a roundstart cyborg express themselves as more than just a robot.

Side note, I feel like everyone could use this feature. I'm not genderfluid, but I'm sure someone would have fun changing their pronouns at will.

My big question is, how hard would this be to code? If it's super simple then really, why not?

[pali6]

I think we could make borg pronouns use pronouns from your character's mind.

> Side note, I feel like everyone could use this feature. I'm not genderfluid, but I'm sure someone would have fun changing their pronouns at will.

You can use the HoP console to change ID pronouns. If you are wearing an ID then the pronouns on it take priority.

[Retrino]

been wanting this for a while, pronouns are only true to your settings when you roundstart on that character file… meaning if you roll borg and ask to be rebuilt, you lose your pronouns. same goes for being borged midround, you lose pronouns. kind of agree on the suggestion of being able to change set pronouns through a verb, this could also maybe help out people who are uncomfortable with stable mutagen?

[kyle2143]

Giving borgs the option of they/them instead of it/its is fine, but making a verb to change pronouns whenever you want seems like bad idea. The issue of stable mutagen is a good example of why, it's supposed to be dehibilitating, adding an ooc way to abate one of its effects is bad when an IC way can be devised too. Like having genetic templates of the crew to let them revert back to their base character chosen from the character setup. (Obviously there should be more nuance and effort required than just that)

I think that letting players so easily and instantly change their character's pronouns, which other players will refer to them by, is a recipie for confusion. If it was only for internal pronouns shown to the player and not other players, then that would be fine since it's just affecting yourself.

[Retrino]

i can understand the stable mutagen stance, it Should be somewhat detrimental in its effects (though it could be worth addressing why a chem with such a simple reciple would even need detrimental effects, looking at it as its own thing separate from changelings). however most players are going to be looking at it surface level as oh, you now have the exact appearance and name as this other person. if said person continued to wear their id, the pronouns of the original identity wouldnt even particularly matter if pali’s correct about id pronouns taking priority over body pronouns. i only brought it up as it seemed to be a somewhat common sentiment that having their identity changed on a whim could be uncomfortable. at the end of the day it is a game, but it could still be worthwhile of a meet in the middle thing

as for the second thing… i don’t really see how something like confusion over someones pronouns couldnt just be solved via communication? a simple “hey, i noticed you were using X set of pronouns but are now X. which do you prefer?” could just clear things up right then and there. regardless though, the original post’s point of borgs being able to set their pronouns would really just be a patch of a bug (pronouns not remaining accurate through anything but roundstart rolling borg)

[Frank_Stein]

Hey, while this is about inclusivity which I understand, they are robots... they're an it. I don't think robots have pronouns or genders or anything like that right ? It's a machine. Seems a bit silly to give it pronouns. Though this change is fairly minor and wouldn't impact the game at all so. Just my two cents .

I don't think a robotic organism couldn't have a gender, since gender is a social construct. They could be whatever gender they felt fit their identity

The part that I'm having trouble with is: Do our borgs have an identity? I'd say they do based on how people play them, and it would make sense considering they're using a human brain most of the time. 

But what about the laws? A human can order a Borg to do just about anything, something I think is a bit antithetical to the idea of a self identity. What happens when a human player orders a borg player to identify as a different gender than they prefer? That seems like a potentially distressing situation and something we'd need to plan for

[Retrino]

honestly someone running around law 2ing borgs to go change their pronouns seems very ooc weird and something that could just fall under the umbrella of “shit borgs dont have to do” (see: speech laws being optional). realistically there is no ingame reason someone would have for this

[Silent Majority]

Hey, while this is about inclusivity which I understand, they are robots... they're an it. I don't think robots have pronouns or genders or anything like that right ? It's a machine. Seems a bit silly to give it pronouns. Though this change is fairly minor and wouldn't impact the game at all so. Just my two cents .

I feel that goes a bit deeper. Many people have a noun they prefer to be called IRL, this would like that in game, and their characters have identities in game for rp, thus they would wish to adhere to this.

This feels sort of akin to saying 'why have any pronouns' Saying they're just machines further sees a bit reductive; they are still players and people still control them outside of the game.


In response to frank I think this would be akin to mindhacking someone to force them wear the opposite sex's clothing and behave as a member. IE it'd be a sorta awful thing to do that someone would likely get in trouble for cause that doesn't sound like an action coming from a good place.

[kyle2143]

I only brought it up as it seemed to be a somewhat common sentiment that having their identity changed on a whim could be uncomfortable. at the end of the day it is a game, but it could still be worthwhile of a meet in the middle thing.

as for the second thing… i don’t really see how something like confusion over someones pronouns couldnt just be solved via communication? a simple “hey, i noticed you were using X set of pronouns but are now X. which do you prefer?” could just clear things up right then and there.

My first point about game mechanics that change your appearance/identity was more about those mechanics add unique and fun effects that aren't just "this kills you". Yeah, nobody likes getting stable mutagen'ed, but it's not supposed to feel that way, much like other poisons. I'd rather add an IC way to deal with such things as forced identity changes than an OOC way that lets you slightly change one aspect of it like the proposed verb to change them whenever you click it. You are not your character, you shouldn't feel such attachment to it not being completely to your liking every round, this game has a not insignificant amount of murder after all, and there are few things that can happen to a person that are less pleasant than that.

As far as confusion that might arise from it, I didn't mean talking with someone and trying to find out their pronouns to address them, you can do that simply by holding alt. But the general interactions with people around the station that you see or get logged in chat like combat logs and whatnot. Making it be an OOC verb just doesn't make internal sense, it should be a physical thing that you have to do like by your ID, PDA, or using a Genetics console.  It would make sense as an ooc verb if it was something that only affected the player who pressed it, so that all chat logs they see that reference their character appear the way they want. 

That said, I really can't imagine why someone would care to edit their pronouns frequently enough in a single round that having to do it IC in-game is so onerous that it makes more sense to give everyone a verb so you can chang it on a whim. I think I said the same thing multiple times here and took too long writing this.

[JOELED]

I've read all of the replies here over a few times and I genuinely don't understand what the problem is for having it be a command for BORG/AI. Roxy has it all coded up and ready to submit (after the PR she submitted today fixing ID changing pronoun hover goes through) and it feels like the best solution for this QOL problem. Borgs don't have IDs and can't use the ID console, so give them an alternative. I'd suggest adding it to the cyborg docker where you can change your name but then it wouldn't be accessible for AI, which is why feedback was given in the RP channel to opt for a command instead.

The fact that borgs can join roundstart and have set pronouns makes the fact that that is the ONLY way to get pronouns as a borg sort of bizarre, as it means that the only people who can have their pronouns set are those who get chosen for the roll instead of joining late as SICC or being borged post mortem, and it makes changing parts difficult as if you are deconstructed in the process you'll end up losing your pronouns. It makes it seem intended that borgs in-universe are able to have pronouns they'd prefer over it/its, but that they're only available to some currently?

[Lord_earthfire]

I've read all of the replies here over a few times and I genuinely don't understand what the problem is for having it be a command for BORG/AI. Roxy has it all coded up and ready to submit (after the PR she submitted today fixing ID changing pronoun hover goes through) and it feels like the best solution for this QOL problem.

Yeah, you don't understand it because you see it as a QOL Feature, while, in fact, it very much isn't.

Petsonally, i see any form of personality in borg as fault NT would very much like to try to get on top on. And i really don't like the trend of borgs being humanized.

On the other side, i recon people would like to play their borg with a personality they enjoy playing. And identification with a gender is for many people a very important aspect of their personality. While i feel people get attached too strongly to their character for their own good (we can see this on the arguments brought up when we talk about stable mutagen or polymorphism), in this case this is very mundane where nothing is really on the line.

All in all, i agree with the suggestion pali made:

Take the gender of the mind/the character you selected at roundstart for latejoin/roundstart borgs.

This will make it clear this is not something meant for the borgs to be selected at will and instead be something that comes from the faulty technique of rewiring brains for microprocessors.

Also, this will remove any chance for people to put in "here, change your gender to..." laws, which would normally be something needing to be dealt with by admins.

[babywrangler85]

I've read all of the replies here over a few times and I genuinely don't understand what the problem is for having it be a command for BORG/AI. Roxy has it all coded up and ready to submit (after the PR she submitted today fixing ID changing pronoun hover goes through) and it feels like the best solution for this QOL problem.

Yeah, you don't understand it because you see it as a QOL Feature, while, in fact, it very much isn't.

Petsonally, i see any form of personality in borg as fault NT would very much like to try to get on top on. And i really don't like the trend of borgs being humanized.

It is a QoL feature because your opinion on how borgs should behave has no basis in lore or the rules. Lots of people on the RP server would very much appreciate this change and borgs already have pronouns just under certain circumstances

[Lord_earthfire]

It is a QoL feature because your opinion on how borgs should behave has no basis in lore or the rules. Lots of people on the RP server would very much appreciate this change and borgs already have pronouns just under certain circumstances

Borgs being tools is established lore. Some people voiced very likely opinions about that, phrased differently. The position borgs currently are in is a thorn in the side for a few players, to be exact.

If it would be a pure qol feature, we wouldnt have the discussion about lore, potentional abuse by borg laws and character creation. At the point it changes how you play/develop your character, it stops being a QOL. It's simply a new feature.

QOL is overused to try to talk down changes with more implications than adding shortcuts.