RP suggestions to improve antagonist play

[Kotlol]

In the RP discussion, there was a discussion that antags are too passive or don't do a lot in RP.
That rounds are slow and mostly peak after 1 hour when antags start doing their grand plans.

Now while I like this culture, that through out a hour of esclation, planning and plotting... a huge event calminates into an epic clash.
Others want to see some antagging at the 15 min mark or slightly earlier. While this is a more "Classic server approach."
I can see the need for earlier smaller scale antagging then waiting a hour everytime unless an admeme spawns or an antag is very skilled.

Being an antag in RP can be very stressful and unforgiving since you can't go the classic route. You gotta be planning,plotting and playing the game. But here's the other factor.. there are other Antags you can work against or with but you don't know how...
This in RP is the biggest factor of "pressure" as antags in my opinion.
In classic you don't care... if you are an antag... you do your thing and if anothr antagonist gets in your way, you will most likely kill em anyway.

But on RP... all antags are driving forces for their respective rounds. And sometimes... you don't want to be the spotlight hog. Cause nothing is more annoying then Antag #1 and Antag #2 doing their own gimmicks at the same time, forcing both to have less of an audiance.

So what can we do to incentivice antags to well antag? Lately we been removing things that allowed antags to build up power without killing other players (Aka vampires and changelings eating monkeys/space dinner patrons) But maybe we just need something else... and thus this topic is set up.

Should antags get other incentives or ways to do their antagging more frequently?
Well I got 3 suggestions myself.

1: "Antag respawning"
You died as an antagonist.. it sucks..and every other crew member you may have killed is being cloned.
If you get cloned, you will most likely be arrested by security or brigged... and also have no gear.

So insted of ending your round then and there. Why not allow an antagonist to respawn as a "lesser antagonist" so they could start a new or better yet...finish a setup that wasn't found yet? (I know previous life rule, but if you setup something hidden to make it go to waste...so maybe an exception for antags in this case?)
Now they won't spawn as anything ridiclously strong... maybe just a sleeper agent that immidently arrives as an awoken sleeper agent or maybe a spief?
This way the antag can basicly spawn as a new antagonist on the station with a clean record and do abit more antagging on a lower scale.

This ALSO in the meta sense, makes security less willing to execute them... 
But at the very least the antagonist can die gloriously and know their round ain't over and can respawn as a new crewmember that is out to do trouble.


2: "Antagonist Radar"
Only conspirators know who other antags are... and considering RP is roleplaying and slower... introducing a way for antags to find and recongise eachother would be nice.
Now I am not saying "Everyone see the big V, A, C, T's" of antags, but more like examining an antagonist player as an antagonist will give a flavor text saying: "You sense their hostility towards the station."
Now only salvagers and conspirators know who are their teammates are... cept well conspirators sometimes have another antagonist in the mix these days they DONT know of.
This small thing would be a nice way of knowing for antags to know: "Hey this guy I have to be aware of or can work together with or avoid"
Removes that stress of not trying to upstage eachother as antagonists. (or in my case.. getting mindhacked by another traitor.)

3: "Silent Antagonist alarm"
When another antagonist "dies" or cryo's (that isn't salvager), other antagonists will know insted of a possible sleeper agent spawning before hand.
This will let all antagonists know "Hey one of us is less on the board!" 
I don't know how to incorperate this one.. but the idea should be the fact that an antagonist should know if another antagonist has kicked the bucket, thus freeing the way for them to allow abit more chaos.
This is also great for coordinated antagonists that found eachother out, to know their partner has died and thus have to finish the plan by themselves.


And those are my 3 Suggestions..but let's be real...we should debate this more. Do antags really need these mechanics? Are they fine? Or could they use something else to help out their RP rounds?

PS: I know that all these suggestions have a possible abuse to ruin rounds. Like an antagonist blowing themselves up each 10 mins with 1. (but ahelp it)
The second one of antagonists ratting eachother out... and the 3rd one.. well thats the most NEUTRAL ONE in my opinion.

[jflan17]

I think you're going to need to make an extremely strong case to justify the implementation of what can only be described as very non-RP features on the RP server (or massage some more RP logic into the features themselves).

[Dhaidburt]

I think the big question is what you mentioned: Do antags need mechanics to team up together or have second chances?

I for one would like some kind of second chance for antags after 10 minutes, so that way sec doesn't feel like they're stomping on the fun of an antag who did something that they legitimately should be executed for early in. Not a 3rd or 4th, but a second. Coming back as a sleeper agent would be a great way to keep the round going too, though as long as you can't respawn as a command sleeper (and not sec but obvs)

As much fun as it would be to have antags know who they all are, team up and do things, that'd take alot of the flair out of conspiracy. I'd rather have organic antag teamups rather than 'oh theres another one in the crowd, lets talk shop out of the blue'

[Lord_earthfire]

Teaming ip woth other antags is not really an issue. Its not hard to piece together who antags are in a hiven round, if you follow the coms.

If you want to promote that, add codewords. These are working quite fine in other codebases.

And to the antag respawn: if the antags mess up, why don't just give other players a go? Make midround spawn antags much more common and dynamic.

Fear of dying is for most antag players not a concern, when i follow the didcissions on discord. Many are struggling with fear of making the round unfun for others by not escalating enough. The other amount have problems with choice paralysis. These players, at that moment, wont do it better if they are able to respawn. Just give the torch to others then so they can jump on the antagging of someone else.

[Kotlol]

Fear of dying is for most antag players not a concern, when i follow the didcissions on discord. Many are struggling with fear of making the round unfun for others by not escalating enough. The other amount have problems with choice paralysis. These players, at that moment, wont do it better if they are able to respawn. Just give the torch to others then so they can jump on the antagging of someone else.

Hmm so most feel like htey will ruin things.. GOOD INFORMATION! Yea then my suggestions are kinda bad.. I thought a safety net for antags will make em willing to escalate more and if they fail they can always come back.

Eitherway i still think we can give antags some sort of idea to improve their antagging somehow. Just need to change the way of thinking.

[Glamurio]

I actually quite like some of the suggestions being made, but perhaps they could use some fine-tuning. I've long since felt that I wish there was more of a way to communicate as Syndicate agent with other traitors and spy thieves. Sure, the outpost exists, but that one doesn't get visited as often (and harder for spy thieves to access) and it's hard to communicate when to show up there.

1: "Antag respawning"
You died as an antagonist.. it sucks..and every other crew member you may have killed is being cloned.
If you get cloned, you will most likely be arrested by security or brigged... and also have no gear.

So insted of ending your round then and there. Why not allow an antagonist to respawn as a "lesser antagonist" so they could start a new or better yet...finish a setup that wasn't found yet? (I know previous life rule, but if you setup something hidden to make it go to waste...so maybe an exception for antags in this case?)
Now they won't spawn as anything ridiclously strong... maybe just a sleeper agent that immidently arrives as an awoken sleeper agent or maybe a spief?
This way the antag can basicly spawn as a new antagonist on the station with a clean record and do abit more antagging on a lower scale.

This ALSO in the meta sense, makes security less willing to execute them... 
But at the very least the antagonist can die gloriously and know their round ain't over and can respawn as a new crewmember that is out to do trouble.

This is a cool idea, I'd probably hone in on the "respawn as lesser antag" system a bit more. To be more specific, depending on the execution method, there could be a chance to respawn as a specific antag. Antags that are borged, could have a chance to spawn emagged, for instance. Changeling gets incinerated? You respawn as a fire elemental after some time. And maybe if your corpse isn't preserved, you come back as an undead.

Could be standardized and iterated upon. However, I don't think antags should get a second chance as a rule. Moreso, it'd be cool to have a slim chance at a last hurrah.

2: "Antagonist Radar"
Only conspirators know who other antags are... and considering RP is roleplaying and slower... introducing a way for antags to find and recongise eachother would be nice.
Now I am not saying "Everyone see the big V, A, C, T's" of antags, but more like examining an antagonist player as an antagonist will give a flavor text saying: "You sense their hostility towards the station."
Now only salvagers and conspirators know who are their teammates are... cept well conspirators sometimes have another antagonist in the mix these days they DONT know of.
This small thing would be a nice way of knowing for antags to know: "Hey this guy I have to be aware of or can work together with or avoid"
Removes that stress of not trying to upstage eachother as antagonists. (or in my case.. getting mindhacked by another traitor.)

We have "Syndicate Intel" you can access about each player on your PDA... why not use this as a means to see if a given player is a traitor? This would at least give spy thieves and traitors more means to work together, it's still not an easy radar functionality, you'd have to read up on all players, and it. Lore-wise it would make sense for Syndicate agents to work together anyhow. This wouldn't really have much of an impact on Syndicate or Nukie gameplay, because those are much more numerous and coordinated, if anything this would lead to the occasional ability for Syndicate team duo gameplay.

Similar cases could be made for some of the other antagonists. For vampires, arcfiends and changelings, it'd make sense to have a way to tell them apart, by scent or otherwise. Not only would it foster cooperation, it could also lead to some antagonist vs. antagonist gimmicks, something that I feel like is missing a bit on RP. If you're fighting an antagonist, you know you don't have to feel bad or hold back, because you're on even footing.

3: "Silent Antagonist alarm"
When another antagonist "dies" or cryo's (that isn't salvager), other antagonists will know insted of a possible sleeper agent spawning before hand.
This will let all antagonists know "Hey one of us is less on the board!" 
I don't know how to incorperate this one.. but the idea should be the fact that an antagonist should know if another antagonist has kicked the bucket, thus freeing the way for them to allow abit more chaos.
This is also great for coordinated antagonists that found eachother out, to know their partner has died and thus have to finish the plan by themselves.

Perhaps the way to implement this one isn't to be silent at all. I'm not sure if there needs to be a mechanical implementation, but rather, it should become normalized to announce executions more publicly. Security, or perhaps Captain or HoS, could make formal announcements after a threat has been eliminated. From a lore-perspective it makes sense; it boosts morale and makes people less scared to work. And it would let antagonists know that a fellow antag died. You could argue to have this be a more automated system, however.

[Kotlol]

This is a cool idea, I'd probably hone in on the "respawn as lesser antag" system a bit more. To be more specific, depending on the execution method, there could be a chance to respawn as a specific antag. Antags that are borged, could have a chance to spawn emagged, for instance. Changeling gets incinerated? You respawn as a fire elemental after some time. And maybe if your corpse isn't preserved, you come back as an undead.

Could be standardized and iterated upon. However, I don't think antags should get a second chance as a rule. Moreso, it'd be cool to have a slim chance at a last hurrah.

We have "Syndicate Intel" you can access about each player on your PDA... why not use this as a means to see if a given player is a traitor? This would at least give spy thieves and traitors more means to work together, it's still not an easy radar functionality, you'd have to read up on all players, and it. Lore-wise it would make sense for Syndicate agents to work together anyhow. This wouldn't really have much of an impact on Syndicate or Nukie gameplay, because those are much more numerous and coordinated, if anything this would lead to the occasional ability for Syndicate team duo gameplay.

Similar cases could be made for some of the other antagonists. For vampires, arcfiends and changelings, it'd make sense to have a way to tell them apart, by scent or otherwise. Not only would it foster cooperation, it could also lead to some antagonist vs. antagonist gimmicks, something that I feel like is missing a bit on RP. If you're fighting an antagonist, you know you don't have to feel bad or hold back, because you're on even footing.



Perhaps the way to implement this one isn't to be silent at all. I'm not sure if there needs to be a mechanical implementation, but rather, it should become normalized to announce executions more publicly. Security, or perhaps Captain or HoS, could make formal announcements after a threat has been eliminated. From a lore-perspective it makes sense; it boosts morale and makes people less scared to work. And it would let antagonists know that a fellow antag died. You could argue to have this be a more automated system, however.

Responding with poor formatting...

1: Respawning as an undead is actually a BRILIANT idea in general. How many times have we left bodies to rot in a corner or infront of medbay?
This alone is not just good for antagonists but players as well. Where they can opt into spawning as a zombie if asked. Thus forcing janitors to follow the miasma before they turn zombie. Thought this should as you say be a rare occurance... especially for antag bodies. It just gives their death more meaning and to be delt with propperly

2: Code words or syndicate intel is great. Though I think Spy thieves should remain as they are, since they are mostly working against eachother. 
I think for traitors to use Syndicate intel is 10/10. For Spy thieves however?? I don't think it fits them since they are also playing against eachother....
Something to actively seek out your fellow traitors is a great thing... with spy thieves I'd say they have to toggle it. Risking possible murder by a fellow spy/thief?
The smelling idea is not a bad one too... too many times have I as a changeling come across another one and ended up drugging eachother.

3: An announcement for each antag down is annoying when it's automated, but the concept seems like a good idea. Though I fear if this is implemented in RP it will cause more antag murdering then arresting... this is more something for Classic. Where if an antagonist is killed the whole station knows! Especially good to know during the chaos of those rounds! This one should be tested on classic, not RP specifically.

[Silent Majority]

All of these sorta..remove alot of aspect OF rp

Our antags are very fatal. They are designed to be fatal. And a big part of the game, and rp, is a trust game. If we allow people to circumnavigate or get rid of the trust game feautres by having antag secret handshakes and antag codewords and antag spider sense we've created a situation where antags no longer have to adhere to the ideology of the trust game.

I do not think any of these idea's are positive as they are, minus:

I wouldn't oppose lesser antag being a pop up spawn for only antags IF there where 3 dead, and even then, not on salvs.

[Lord_earthfire]

I wouldn't oppose lesser antag being a pop up spawn for only antags IF there where 3 dead, and even then, not on salvs.

Dead antags don't cut it, really. With security quite rarely killing non-ww/vampire antags, chances are that won't cut it. Interrogating or processing antags for 15+ minutes with removal of contraband is enough to effectively take them out of the round and that won't trigger the latespawn.

Besides, many rounds we got like only 1-2 antags.

[Silent Majority]

I dunno. I have rounds we gotta execute like 5 people. I think its because there's lots of antags that don't wanna act much on antags. Lings are almost always killed and arc's get killed alot too. Tators tend to die as well..especially if they kill someone. 15+ minute interro's seem pretty high, and generally would sorta...need the antag to be playing along which usually means they enjoy it.

[Kotlol]

I am more on Slient Majority here.
The only reason interrogations would take 15+ mins is:
- Antag is dieing.
- Another antag is doing their plot and you are on hold.

I never seen interrogations last more then 6 mins on the regular.

Also remember this topic is ment to find ways for antags to feel more confident to antag on RP.