Removal of maintenance cameras

[colossusqw]

I will preface this with saying this was made in response to quite a few discussions i've participated in on the RP gooncord chat, and to which i've seen a few people echo the sentiment that maint cameras are not ideal for gameplay reasons, as well as some people who's antag rounds i've watched end very much earlier than one would expect on RP through little fault of their own.

With that out of the way, i dislike maintenance cameras. They take away a lot of the intrigue aspect of antagonists, since at any point anyone doing any sort of evil deed in a quiet out of the way place can be randomly crossed by the watchful eye of the AI, and expecially on lowpop, i've seen people bolted in place and have security called on them 20/30 minutes in. Snipping a camera is quite visible and more often than not just alerts the AI to your presence, and more than that, it's completely out of your control if you will be spotted by an AI randomly patroling, or even if this AI will decide to be lenient to you. There is little to no counterplay to this, besides being very luck based, and it takes away from the one spot an antag could consider halfway safe for evil deeds. The maintenance tunnels feel more like shortcuts through the station than shady places.

It's simply too much power for a single player to be able to completely cut short an antagonist round and the only thing stopping it from happening half the rounds is the expectation that the players won't do it. It is my belief that most maps would function better for intriguing and more balanced games without maintenance cameras, but i would also like to hear what everyone has to say, expecially considering my view on the matter is mostly from RP experience.

Edit: I would also like to add that i don't think it's malice from the part of a lot of AIs that causes this a lot of the time, simply that even with what would otherwise be quite a normal reaction for an AI to have can has a tremendous consequence on an antag's round, such as being bolted in place or having your position constantly tracked for security after they ask the AI for it.

[Kotlol]

I have no problem with lowering the maintance camera amounts.
I see the maintance shafts as "Air vents" Aka things that is ment to not have camera's anyway.

I think a "Few camera's" on key locations would be nice, but other wise remove em entirely.
It gives borgs more reasons to vent dive and report to the AI.
It gives Antags more room to be stealthy in there.
It gives players more anxiety to go through it.
It gives security more reason to patrol the maintance shafts.

So yes.. this one I support.

[DioChasek]

Couple thoughts I have mixed opinions here. Yes it is an awful lot of power to have in a couple peoples hands (AI and anyone on cameras) and you are right it can straight up ruin a round when you get bolted in at minute 20. However there are going to be consequences for removing the cameras from maintenance. All of a sudden the number of people in the tunnels will drop drastically because there is no sane reason to go in the one part of the ship where no one has a chance to catch your attacker in the act.

I would surmise that more blindspots would be a better solution other than outright removal of all maintenance cameras. Make camera coverage spotty at best then all of a sudden it makes sense as to why you would even think to go to the murder backhalls.

Give me more meaningful ways to mess with the cameras would be great. A traitor item that loops a mouse walking by or something I dunno which is better than me oh my I am the ai and I know I have a camera here I wonder who snipped the cameras.

The other thing is like it or not sometimes you do need those cameras on particulalrly high pop rounds to even attempt to stem the tide of self antags mixed in with actual antags.

TLDR a reduction in camera coverage is probably best, give me more ways to mess with the cameras to use to my advantage as an antag.

[colossusqw]

I really don't like the idea of limiting it to select items, because then it keeps the default state as standard imo. Like, i don't think giving an exception to traitors that spend some TC really fixes the issue at all, being that everyone else continues to have the same issue.

[DioChasek]

Spitballing ideas here

[RelentlessGarbage]

Hm. What if you could use the Polaroid camera in conjunction with some glue (or some other resource) to put a picture over the camera lens that mimicked what the video camera could see at a given moment in time? The image on the camera would be static and wouldn't reflect what was actually going on, but it could fool an AI that's quickly glancing through their cameras into thinking that nothing is wrong. Anyone that actually looks at the camera from the outside, though, would see that the camera had been tampered with, and it'd take a little bit of time to put the picture on the lens, so it'd only really be effective in maintenance where you're less likely to get caught in the act and people are less likely to notice. (The AI could still catch you in the act of putting the printed picture on the camera, though.)

No idea how this would be implemented in practice, just a funny thought.

[Kotlol]

Hm. What if you could use the Polaroid camera in conjunction with some glue (or some other resource) to put a picture over the camera lens that mimicked what the video camera could see at a given moment in time? The image on the camera would be static and wouldn't reflect what was actually going on, but it could fool an AI that's quickly glancing through their cameras into thinking that nothing is wrong. Anyone that actually looks at the camera from the outside, though, would see that the camera had been tampered with, and it'd take a little bit of time to put the picture on the lens, so it'd only really be effective in maintenance where you're less likely to get caught in the act and people are less likely to notice. (The AI could still catch you in the act of putting the printed picture on the camera, though.)

No idea how this would be implemented in practice, just a funny thought.

Yes either removing and adding blind spots or a tool to "fool the camera's" insted of "breaking down or snipping them"

Or maybe more events where camera's just don't work correctly... you know stuff that makes engineers having to fix camera's.

That's the stuff we need technically. If camera can "stop working" out of their own. The AI has to get that camera fixed, now every camera that doesn't work isn't IMMIDENTLY suspected to be an antag sabotaging it.

Or simply tampering with a camera to show a false image that at 1st glance makes anyone looking go "Nothing huh." But if you inspect it closely, you will see something that goes: "WAIT THATS FAKE"

It makes things like that, that will make the idea of an antagonist planning a heist more fun. Imagine conspirators setting up a plan to distract security and the AI, then create a blind area of camera's to do their things and make sure security never checks it to finally end in: "GREETINGS STATION! WE HID A NUKE IN YOUR STATION SOMEWHERE! YOU HAVE 10 MINUTES TO LEAVE 5 MILLION CREDITS ON A DISCLOSED LOCATION OR ELSE THE BOMB GOES BOOM!"

Even doing something as simple as: "Modding an item to put up fake pictures infront of cameras" would work. And can only be spotted by examining camera's.

[TDHooligan]

with the power usage changes i could see them reasonably staying offline unless they detected fast-movement close by, like getting tripped by weird chairs.

if you trip them, they visibly blink on for a minute or so.

[Kotlol]

with the power usage changes i could see them reasonably staying offline unless they detected fast-movement close by, like getting tripped by weird chairs.

if you trip them, they visibly blink on for a minute or so.

That's briliant actually.. now walking speed has a use and sprinting will trip them on.

[babayetu83]

it's easy enough to prevent the ai from tracking your movements since not all of them know to track any Unknowns prowling the station

that, or do some prepwork with some stable mutagen to conceal your crimes

[Kotlol]

it's easy enough to prevent the ai from tracking your movements since not all of them know to track any Unknowns prowling the station

that, or do some prepwork with some stable mutagen to conceal your crimes

"Unknown spotted, please investigate"

Security catches the unknown.. it's classic, they are smacked. It's over.

"Use stable mutagen"
Not every antag is a scientist.

[babayetu83]

that still gives you ample time to move around and hide, and there's still ways to fuck with the ai if you really want to give it a hard time in tracking you if you decide to conceal yourself as an unknown. simply put masks on monkeys and stuff them in different parts of maintenance. people might see them sure but they might not think twice about it. and i doubt they would ever expect "oh this is from somebody trying to conceal and hide themselves". and you certainly don't have to be a scientist to make it, you can slip behind the bar or pharmacy and make it that way. i'm just not a big fan of threads calling for nerfs because they got skill diff'd by the role that is generally played by experienced and seasoned players

[Sord213]

I'd be perfectly fine removing the vast majority of cameras from maintenance areas. Key exceptions being around "secure" areas (like EVA, around security on maps with maint around sec like cog2, or similar) and functional areas (solar maints, exterior airlocks).

[RelentlessGarbage]

I'd be perfectly fine removing the vast majority of cameras from maintenance areas. Key exceptions being around "secure" areas (like EVA, around security on maps with maint around sec like cog2, or similar) and functional areas (solar maints, exterior airlocks).

Adding more blind spots to maintenance seems like a reasonable compromise. A bit of scouting could let antags know what areas are safe for murdering and corpse disposal. And I like the addition of cameras around entrances to the station, like maintenance airlocks, both because it makes practical sense (you would want to be checking to see if people are coming in and out of the station through maintenance entrances) and also to slightly discourage spacing people and encourage any other method of corpse disposal/murdering.

Also going to add that maints as-is are not actually that safe. Sure, cameras can catch people murdering you, but (on classic, at least) your ass is usually still dead in the end - it's the presence of bystanders and Sec that can immediately intervene if they see crimes happening that makes the main hallways of the station safer most of the time. (Conversely, if there's a rampaging wizard or rogue borgs roaming the halls, suddenly maintenance and the secluded nooks without camera coverage become a lot safer than the station's main thoroughfares.)

[colossusqw]

I'd be perfectly fine removing the vast majority of cameras from maintenance areas. Key exceptions being around "secure" areas (like EVA, around security on maps with maint around sec like cog2, or similar) and functional areas (solar maints, exterior airlocks).

That seems perfect.