"The Stun META discussion Thread"

[Kotlol]

Okay, I think after the talk about "STUN META" so much in forums and discord let's put a topic in here to discuss it in futher detail.

Acording to most.. there is a powerful "STUN META" going around where people rather stun eachother then kill eachother.
Infact you can chose to kill but there are many ways to deal with it where as STUN lacks most ways to counter.

In my own observations.. I think the "STUN META" is okay, but... over the years "STUN" has indeed grown in power, but not due to "STUN" getting buffed.
But other things being changed...

Mutations were overhauled to make more risk rewards.. thus turning things like SMES HUMAN less effective against Stun. Since normally it makes you immune to most stuns. This also applies to Arcfiends to some degree. (Roach also is no longer 100% immune due to the nuclear reactor being added)
There are also some other changes but I couldn't verify.

Due to this "stun" has been a more go to option to take out oppenents...but...

On the other side.
Security has been getting more robust and working together.
Antags been mostly new and unable to know how to counteract stun.

I think most people will say this: "Stun has not enough counterplay"
Or: "It takes too much to counterplay stun without pay off"

So is it true? Can we compile everything that counters stun and what you can do to counteract lethals to begin with?
Now since I do not know the statistic of every item or how to find it. (Cause im Lazy)
I am going to ask people here on the forum to help with this 1st step.

In the meantime we can discuss all we like about this.

UPDATE 1: Some statistics from Lord_earthfire:

Well for some numbers, if i got anything wrong correctio s are well appreciated:

A stun baton, activated, got a stamina drain of 130. With a stamina regen of 10/s, this leaves a ~6 second window for two hits to connect to drive someone standing still/walking onto the ground. Even more time if they try to run or fight. And running us not an option due to desorient.

Th striken through information information is FALSE. Sorry, mixed stun_resist and desorient_protection

A csaber gets you into crit with 2 hits, but to actually make you unable to fight back we are talking about around 3-4. A Katana makes you unable to fight back with 2-3 hits. You are still able to run away, though.

From my opinion, stun batons got a better TTK than traitor weaponry against unprepared crew and security that get jumped on and cannot eat their robust donuts.
UPDATE: Jep, my information was blatantly false, like i found out. Stim chems actually don't affect the stamina redcution AT ALL. They just affect the time you are stunned and until you get up. And the stamina regen, which is for most chemicals too small to help against most stuns.

UPDATE 2: Ranged weapon data added:

Cheffie

The softens the blow message is just because of how projectiles work and doesn't actually change the stam damage, only body disorienate resist affects stam damage taken.
Heres the normal weapons stam damage pointblank, how many shots they get on that mode (with a 200pu cell) and how many shots to down:
Baton does 130 stam damage (8 hits, 2 hits to down)
Taser does 80 normal (8 shots, 3 shots to down), 240 burst (2 shots, 1 shot to down)
Taser shotgun does 200 normal (8 shots, 1 shot to down), 110 slug (6 shots, 2 shots to down)
Taser SMG does 42.5 automatic (25 shots, 6~7 shots to down), 144 burst (5 shots, 2 shots to down)
Dets rounds are the same as normal taser shots.
Wavegun not compared here because its gimmick is being better further away so a pointblank test won't be fair.

[UrsulaMejor]

The Stun Meta, old enough to get its driver's permit 🚗

[Lord_earthfire]

A thing i want to throw in as well:

I think what we should also talk about is the desorient. While you can somewhat resist with anti-stun chemicals the desorient makes it very hard to get out of melee range once you enter it. So once you hit a baton hit, you will very likely eat the second one as well. In comparison, you can make a dash to get out of melee range when you're hit with a c-saber, which gives you a slight chance to retaliate. Against the desorient, a dash doesn't help much and rather make it more easy to get you on the ground due to stamina drain (which, admittably, is a noob trap).

[Zafhset]

Do you want to know why "stun" is the go-to solution (or meta) for security?

Because it's literally their only option presented by their gear.

You could argue that stun is superior/etc but it's not "THE meta" when 90% of your gear works via stuns. You simply don't have an alternate choice unless you go out of your way to obtain lethals to fight with.

At that point the argument would instead be "sec killed me on contact, a discussion".

[Lord_earthfire]

Do you want to know why "stun" is the go-to solution (or meta) for security?

It's not only about security-only. It's the thing that if an antag gets their hands on a stun baton, their power spikes really hard.

And this is a well known issue, because e.g. that's why wizards got their EMP-hands.

[Kotlol]

Do you want to know why "stun" is the go-to solution (or meta) for security?

It's not only about security-only. It's the thing that if an antag gets their hands on a stun baton, their power spikes really hard.

And this is a well known issue, because e.g. that's why wizards got their EMP-hands.

This is why I wanted to start this topic.
There are a lot of people saying: "Stun ends my run"
But also... "Antags prefer getting Stun from Security or Mindhack a security"

A mindhack complaint topic we were able to find out: "Mindhackers keep taking security and then stunning goes around"
This shows antags prefer having stun on their side over their killing powers.

Personally I think cause stun allows to escalate the scenerio in fun ways, but some say is because lethals take a long while and take a lot of ammo to permanently take out someone. 

As for Ursa, thanks for that quote.

This is why I conclidated it to this topic so we can compare notes...All facts surrounding stun, counterplay and complaints.

[Silent Majority]

I'd trade my taser for gloves that made me grapple better

[Frank_Stein]

I'll say the kind of combat that I find enjoyable is the kind where there's a lot of turnaround and improvisation. A fist fight in the bar where people are grabbing plates, jumping off chairs, and tossing each other into vending machines is more compelling to me because it involves more thought and interaction with the environment.

Stuns will end a fight very quickly, and that's needed because antag tools will also end a fight very quickly.

I don't have any solution for this because things like guns and c-sabers should feel scary and balancing between these things are delicate, but my ideal would be something that draws people closer into being put back into that place where they end up having to have those kind of fist fights again.

[RelentlessGarbage]

I don't really have a solution for SS13's combat system as it stands. It's been like this for an exceedingly long time, and while more counterplay options to stuns can be added (e.g. more ways to obtain stun resistance), I somewhat doubt that stuns themselves will see a major rework. I wouldn't mind if they did, of course, but they probably won't.

I will add that part of the reason stuns themselves are so powerful is because we're on a space station. In space. Barring Oshan (and Manta, I guess), the play area is surrounded by a region that will very quickly kill you if you don't have any protection, and the duration of many stuns is such that you'll likely be in critical condition before you're able to physically do anything after getting thrown into space. By the time you put on internals - if you even get the chance to - you're probably dead from accumulated BURN. (Which is to say nothing of how FAST you get thrown when someone spaces you - better hope an asteroid is there to catch you in the next Z-Level, or you're never getting back to the station.) Why bother killing someone and leaving behind evidence when you can just stun 'em and let the depths of space do all the work for you?

There are, of course, other ways to kill people from a stun, with some being even better guarantees that your target will stay dead, a la the crusher. But spacing a stunned person is extremely easy, particularly on classic where people don't tend to travel in groups and aren't likely to be saved by someone else either before or after being yeeted into a hard vacuum.

[Kotlol]

I'll say the kind of combat that I find enjoyable is the kind where there's a lot of turnaround and improvisation. A fist fight in the bar where people are grabbing plates, jumping off chairs, and tossing each other into vending machines is more compelling to me because it involves more thought and interaction with the environment.

Stuns will end a fight very quickly, and that's needed because antag tools will also end a fight very quickly.

I don't have any solution for this because things like guns and c-sabers should feel scary and balancing between these things are delicate, but my ideal would be something that draws people closer into being put back into that place where they end up having to have those kind of fist fights again.

Exactly. Improv fighting is fun and why we get "rage cage" rounds.

And yea.. removing stun (aka non lethal) or changing it.. will shift to lethal..

One of the things an antag can do to counteract stuns is "wear shades" against flashes.. then EMP grenade sec so they cannot stun at all.. but at that point.. Security is 100% shut down except for the detective with their stun rounds/lethal rounds.
And considering the det has no baton.. and no longer can flash the antag when they go down from a stun round... and has trouble loading a round of stun rounds into a guy who's on the ground.. you can defintally guess it will become a gunfight.

But as you point out. Things like c-sabers and most guns by traitors/nukies can end fights within a shot.
2 hits from a c-saber and you go down. 1 more hit and you are most likely DEAD without question.
Even the silenced pistol needs to only unload 1 round into a target to put em into critical.

But I don't think we should "balance" anything yet till we know the exact numbers how to make lethals less lethal and stun less stun.

[Froggit_Dogget]

hottake - weaken secs armor, increase their stuns.

[TDHooligan]

TL;DR: You can just read the bold stuff

Since stamina was added to the game, I think the 'stun' part of the meta isn't directly attributed to how stuns work any more.

I think the key issue is the disparity in equipment. Dedicated murder tools aren't just good at their job, they're *insanely good* at their job.
So good, in fact, that security needs super-restricted, specialised gear that can actually deal with it. Stun batons, tasers. There's no staff-available equipment that comes close, and this is due to a multitude of factors, i've listed in order of magnitude:


1: Traitor weapons make combat *incredibly* fast
- With their original design goal, traitor weapons are built to be able to handle someone before they escape, or someone else can reasonably intervene.
- Right now, this stands at an average TTK of 2-3 hits (usually 2 to shallow crit, 3 to deepcrit)
- This is the main reason why your best chance at beating traitor weapons is 'spam disarm and hope for the best'


2: Stun weapons need similar TTK to traitor equipment
- This currently makes their effective TTK 2~3 hits (You'd generally consider someone helplessly stunned 'defeated')
- Note how CSaber stuns were a huge issue after batons got disorients
- Another interesting part is that these also ignore (most) armor. I think this is fine but would need accounting for if adjusting non-stun gear.


3: Improvised weapons are not only weak, but are also much weaker vs armor
- A traitor with even an upturned welding helmet sees a 26% reduction in damage from Fire extinguishers, a common higher-tier melee. A staffie with the same takes 6% less damage from a saber, making zero difference to their TTK.
- Weaker weapons just get dunked on further.
- Every traitor wears sunglasses. Flashes are out of the question.


4: Unbalanced combat gets out of hand really quickly
- Health induced movement penalties make the second hit easier to land. They also only start at 30 damage, meaning traitors are unaffected by pain until they've taken 2~3 hits. Once a traitor lands a single hit the entire fight is in their hands..
- You *can* sprint - but why would you lay down all your stamina to hit someone once more with anything but a baton?



I'd say there are several other things that make the 'stun meta' worse. Many departments have been significantly de-fanged, so rampaging with weapons is still your most sure-fire way to make people dead.

I think there's room to adjust these 4 key issues, moving them towards making traitor weapons a huge leg-up rather than duels of 'cheese the weapon out of their hands or lose' - I'll list a few examples.


Address 1 & 2 : Lower the raw, immediate power of traitor weapons & stun batons.
- This ultimately lowers the relative impact of issues 3 & 4 too.
- I think there's room for making batons explicitly weaker than traitor weapons in this scenario, lowering the risk for traitors that're fighting.
- Another issue to consider is actually number of opponents when taking this approach. Perhaps it's worth investigating changes to bleed, as vigilante mobs generally take a long time to actually pin down antagonists. Adding a long-game to lethals like bleed-induced stamina degens could improve their one-vs-many staying power


Address 3: Adjust melee armor to be multiplicative.
- Melee armor VS ranged armor acting different is a weird thing anyway. Stun weapons would likely need to be weakened to compensate, as this shifts combat in security's favor. 
- There should still be cases where full immunity is granted, like punches. perhaps keep lower additive numbers as 'absorption' values.


Address 4: Limit the effects of pain in combat (ie. while dodging and weaving)
 - Lowering how it affects BASE_SPEED while maintaining the effect on BASE_SPEED_SUSTAINED would lower the in-combat disadvantage of being in pain.

[NanoDano]

I'd trade my taser for gloves that made me grapple better

A sec loadout that just mades you better at beating the shit out of people would be hilarious

---

Address 3: Adjust melee armor to be multiplicative.
- Melee armor VS ranged armor acting different is a weird thing anyway. Stun weapons would likely need to be weakened to compensate, as this shifts combat in security's favor. 
- There should still be cases where full immunity is granted, like punches. perhaps keep lower additive numbers as 'absorption' values.

Buffing sec armor and nerfing stuns would be an interesting change I think, making secoffs really fucking hard to kill rather than being stunlocked the moment they get in range would be a neat take imo. However this would also make poisons and dart based weapons better since they go through armor.

---

Yet another idea from me(yes i know i talk alot) what if security weapons went from tasers to fully rubber/beanbag weapons, they would do damage(maybe even have them be unable to go under a certain amount of health) but be more focused around slowing the enemy from chip damage and just slowing upon being hit to the point to where the officer can safely baton them and cuff them. This way maybe antags wouldnt be focused on taking an officers weapon because their lethal weapons can kill much faster. Im also thinking this would work well with a baton nerf

[Kotlol]

Address 1 & 2 : Lower the raw, immediate power of traitor weapons & stun batons.
- This ultimately lowers the relative impact of issues 3 & 4 too.
- I think there's room for making batons explicitly weaker than traitor weapons in this scenario, lowering the risk for traitors that're fighting.
- Another issue to consider is actually number of opponents when taking this approach. Perhaps it's worth investigating changes to bleed, as vigilante mobs generally take a long time to actually pin down antagonists. Adding a long-game to lethals like bleed-induced stamina degens could improve their one-vs-many staying power


Address 3: Adjust melee armor to be multiplicative.
- Melee armor VS ranged armor acting different is a weird thing anyway. Stun weapons would likely need to be weakened to compensate, as this shifts combat in security's favor. 
- There should still be cases where full immunity is granted, like punches. perhaps keep lower additive numbers as 'absorption' values.


Address 4: Limit the effects of pain in combat (ie. while dodging and weaving)
 - Lowering how it affects BASE_SPEED while maintaining the effect on BASE_SPEED_SUSTAINED would lower the in-combat disadvantage of being in pain.

Really nice adreses I love it!

You also make some good points that Sec stunning is strong, since all real deadly traitor weapons are just as strong.

As for rubber bullets / beanbags. That's the detective's gun with stun rounds for you.
Wich I guess armor can deminish?
Also there is the shotguns in armory that have stun rounds too.

In my opinion... I just think SMES Human or a new gadget can lower stun's effect, forcing security to change approaches.
But I think TDHooligan has got the best idea. I still want to see the numbers though.

[Santa Shy]

A big issue with stuns is how stam is played out in goon at least I think a few adjustments with the stam system since everyone is ALWAYS RUNNING it makes you WAY more susceptible to stuns and if your slower than the sec off they WILL catch up to you and baton you but if you decide to stay your distance and run and the sec off runs your add a disadvantage because your at a lower stan and now are susceptible to tazers, See Wave gun and Tazer shotgun. Honestly in my opinion the bigguest issue with tazers and stam and such is the stamina system