[PR] Cuffs rebalance

[github_bot]

PULL REQUEST DETAILS





About the PR
Shakes up handcuffs a lil bit

Removal times
normal cuffs: 40 - 50 seconds to 25 - 35 seconds
custom material cuff: max cuff time 50 seconds to 40 seconds

Apply times
Overall 6 seconds
Security bonus: 2x to 1.5x
ziptie cuffs 0.5x apply
normal cuffs: 6 seconds crew / 4 seconds security
ziptie cuffs: 3 seconds crew / 2 seconds security

before was 4 seconds crew / 2 security for both

Pouch changes
Security officers now spawns with 2 pairs of ziptie cuffs and 1 pair normal
Security assistants now spawn with 2 pairs of ziptie cuffs

Why's this needed?
I think that currently cuffs are too strong. If you do get cuffed they are either a non issue due to strength or you need to stand still for almost a full minute to remove them, its just too punishing.
There is also no reason at all to use ziptie cuffs since they take the same time to cuff someone. Now ziptie cuffs should be the standard for most arrests with normal cuffs being reserved for higher priority targets with the slightly longer cuff time.


Changelog

Code:

changelog
(u)Cheffie
(+)Cuffs have been rebalanced slightly:
Normal cuffs now take a bit longer to apply and less time to remove. Ziptie cuffs take less time to apply.
Security now spawns with some ziptie cuffs in their pouches.

PULL REQUEST DETAILS

[Kotlol]

Interresting PR.
I do think Zipties are horribly underused and normal cuffs are standard and a huge supply of them. I mean the only one who doesn't get cuffs is the detective but even he can stop by a Sec-Tec and get several without issue. All security officers spawn with 3 Cuffs.

In my opinion... I am fine with security spawning with Zipties only and only having 1 set of normal cuffs without any replacement INSTED

Nerfing cuffs ain't it, but I do like the idea "custom cuffs" are better.
Maybe some mutations or such could help breaking free of cuffs better insted of FLAT OUT NERFING the cuffs insted.

We have alternatives... so let's make people turn to that rather then nerfing the cuffs, cause as you said: "Cuffs are suppose to be for high priority"
And how do we get players to use them sparringly? Limiting their supply.

[Flaborized]

I don't particularly like the changes here personally: I think lowering the supply of regular cuffs *and* cutting the cuff time pulls it in two different directions: Having it be limited makes it feel like a resource you bust out when you need it with some strategy, but having it be slower makes it Less Good at doing the main thing cuffs need to do. If you already have someone zip cuffed and are sec, you can stun them and just apply regular cuffs or w/e, so I don't think that's actually much of a meaningful nerf. Zipties already don't leave behind cuffs for whoever you cuffed to loot, which I think is a decent niche for the item.

I'd be fine with there being different use-cases for the two items though. *Could* be a neat way to express yourself through gameplay based on which you use (or which you use in certain situations)...

[Cheffie]

Ziptie cuffs are not used because there is no reason to use them, currently they are just worst cuffs.
We most certainly don't need any "Better cuffs" they already shutdown anyone without the ability to break out of them instantly.
This also isn't just a nerf to cuffs, ziptie cuffs still give you enough time to buckle cuff search people its just that if they do get away they aren't in cuffs for nearly a minute.
I do agree on the availablity thing though, ziptie cuffs are already more plentiful in vendors, they should probably replace normal cuffs in wall vendors.
I have no idea what other alternatives there are which you speak of that don't also completely shut people down (Porta brig, Straight jackets).

edit: this is replying to Kotlol I forgot to actually reply it

---

I don't particularly like the changes here personally: I think lowering the supply of regular cuffs *and* cutting the cuff time pulls it in two different directions: Having it be limited makes it feel like a resource you bust out when you need it with some strategy, but having it be slower makes it Less Good at doing the main thing cuffs need to do. If you already have someone zip cuffed and are sec, you can stun them and just apply regular cuffs or w/e, so I don't think that's actually much of a meaningful nerf. Zipties already don't leave behind cuffs for whoever you cuffed to loot, which I think is a decent niche for the item.

I'd be fine with there being different use-cases for the two items though. *Could* be a neat way to express yourself through gameplay based on which you use (or which you use in certain situations)...

The supply of regular cuffs is hardly cut, if officers want to use them instead there are handcuff boxes, dispensers, and around 30 ish in vendors. Cuffs will still do their job well while being slower since most of the time if you get stunned by security it will be 15 seconds at least, ziptie cuffs will suffice for most things since buckling increases removal time by 1.5x giving more than enough time to search off of a bucklecuff in brig and I doubt anyone will use baton charge to recuff someone.
Personally I just don't see why cuff times are so short considering how long stun times are.

[Kotlol]

The supply of regular cuffs is hardly cut, if officers want to use them instead there are handcuff boxes, dispensers, and around 30 ish in vendors. Cuffs will still do their job well while being slower since most of the time if you get stunned by security it will be 15 seconds at least, ziptie cuffs will suffice for most things since buckling increases removal time by 1.5x giving more than enough time to search off of a bucklecuff in brig and I doubt anyone will use baton charge to recuff someone.
Personally I just don't see why cuff times are so short considering how long stun times are.

Ooh... did you considering buffs or abillities that LOWER STUN TIME DRASTICALLY?

We're talking triple meth, cyber organs, food buffs and more.
If you know how to buff yourself and recover stamina quickly.. those stun timers go from 15 seconds to ..uuh I don't know the calculations but it's fast.

I am just checking if you are aware of it.

[Frolicsome Flufficorn]

Ooh... did you considering buffs or abillities that LOWER STUN TIME DRASTICALLY?

We're talking triple meth, cyber organs, food buffs and more.
If you know how to buff yourself and recover stamina quickly.. those stun timers go from 15 seconds to ..uuh I don't know the calculations but it's fast.

I am just checking if you are aware of it.

So your suggesting that every round everyone needs to power game in order to avoid cuffs? or alternatively we can do this PR and make it so we skip the rounds where everyone is forced to be on all kinds of drugs and body augmentations just because cuffs = person being killed unless they have Freedom implant or Borg arms. 

Also A thing that you seem to miss from this PR is that even with this change it doesn't change the fact that unless a sec off stands still for ages. It doesnt change anything all it does is make it so theres a fair change where Ziptie cuffs have a purpose and theres a downside to attempting to use normal cuffs.

In conclusion. I genuinely love this idea as it gives purpose to a item that otherwise its only use is that its used by securitrons and guardbuddies. And suggesting that it isnt needed because people can Powergame to bypass it brings up its own issues. such as why do people have to power game drugs and augmentations to survive what all security get every game.

[Lord_earthfire]

Personally, i appreciate that it gives ziptie cuffs a vaible use.

On the ither hand, i dont think cuffs need to decrease in cuffing time if their application tine gets increased. I would settle for one of the two: either increase cuffing time, or decreasing being cuffed time.

Actually, i would take the increase in cuffing time and increase the time being cuffed. Keep in mind that cufs are used in RP for hostage situations amd hostages breaking out of cuffs is already sonething you seriously need to consider. It would lead to an uptick of straightjacket usage, which should honestly stay an exception.

[Kotlol]

Ooh... did you considering buffs or abillities that LOWER STUN TIME DRASTICALLY?

We're talking triple meth, cyber organs, food buffs and more.
If you know how to buff yourself and recover stamina quickly.. those stun timers go from 15 seconds to ..uuh I don't know the calculations but it's fast.

I am just checking if you are aware of it.

So your suggesting that every round everyone needs to power game in order to avoid cuffs? or alternatively we can do this PR and make it so we skip the rounds where everyone is forced to be on all kinds of drugs and body augmentations just because cuffs = person being killed unless they have Freedom implant or Borg arms. 

Also A thing that you seem to miss from this PR is that even with this change it doesn't change the fact that unless a sec off stands still for ages. It doesnt change anything all it does is make it so theres a fair change where Ziptie cuffs have a purpose and theres a downside to attempting to use normal cuffs.

In conclusion. I genuinely love this idea as it gives purpose to a item that otherwise its only use is that its used by securitrons and guardbuddies. And suggesting that it isnt needed because people can Powergame to bypass it brings up its own issues. such as why do people have to power game drugs and augmentations to survive what all security get every game.

The PR increases locking time and that buffs players who POWER GAME by a lot.
If you are going to balance things you need to balance things around every factor, if you balance a game for every basic john, then the power gamers who know every detail and such will overwhelm basic johns. (basic john aint an insult, it is just a term I use for a player who doesn't use every game mechanic to it's advantage)

Also my question is... why does every player who ISN'T suppose to fight security need a buff against cuffs?
Why does a random staffy suppose to have a chance of escaping security when they are basicly NOT suppose to do that?

This is why I have a problem with the PR and prefer limiting cuff supply so Zipties have more use.
Or give Zipties and advantage over cuffs despite all the other drawbacks. Faster arresting is nice, but the pay off is kinda bad.

Anyhow I think i said enough on this topic to voice my concerns and I will hold point to say: "Do something else then nerfing a tool that is useful for all fronts"
Insted buff or give incentive to use the Zipties.
Heck I think even restricting the port-a-brig to allow any players wearing cuffs in and only zipties will help a bit with restricting cuffs.

[Cheffie]

Ooh... did you considering buffs or abillities that LOWER STUN TIME DRASTICALLY?

We're talking triple meth, cyber organs, food buffs and more.
If you know how to buff yourself and recover stamina quickly.. those stun timers go from 15 seconds to ..uuh I don't know the calculations but it's fast.

I am just checking if you are aware of it.

Yes, Ive made chem mixes that gave me the maximum possible stun resistance that isn't 100% and still got cuffed off of it. Also you shouldn't need to powergame so hard just to avoid handcuffs.

[Santa Shy]

With how the current stun system works and you never have a reason TO use zipties other than convivence because right now there is almost no reason with the abundance of cuffs to use zipties other than "oh it will degrade and they don't have cuffs anymore" Because as of right now there is 0 use of zip ties since cuffs do the same job but are reusable. It also makes sense since zip ties are SUPPOSED to be faster than regular cuffs and break easier.

If anything this change makes sense and should have been in the game ALOT earlier. There should be no concern with cuffing problems since when are you ever cuffing someone that already isn't disabled on the ground? almost 100% of the time unless the crimer is on some HARD STIM DRUGS, Adrenaline or gene nerding the person in question will always witout fail have at least 15-30 seconds of stun due to everyone OVER STUNNING.

This isnt really a buff to anything the numbers are still the same as they are for zipties while just making cuffs take longer to use and should be used with more thought into it other than
>cuff
>Stun to remove
Or
>Cuff
>Leave in brig and let the guy take cuffs
if he EVEN TAKES THEM

[Silent Majority]

I just want cuffs to be removable while moving, needing a stun to stop. I hate how long it is. I feel they shut down too much

[TDHooligan]

ziptie cuffs are kinda bland but they still serve an important purpose of restricting equipment for crew. i don't think the problem is their effectiveness, as they are still very effective. buffing their ability to do a cuff's job is basically mandating their use by every security officer, as the difference between the two would regularly be life and death.

my personal take is that sec has a super stressful role that's also forced into having a messy inventory. handcuffs are a big part of this issue. making ziptie cuffs be stackable in pairs is a big QoL fix that doesn't make one explicitly better (one infinite use cuff VS two single-use cuffs for each slot in your belt)

[Kotlol]

my personal take is that sec has a super stressful role that's also forced into having a messy inventory. handcuffs are a big part of this issue. making ziptie cuffs be stackable in pairs is a big QoL fix that doesn't make one explicitly better (one infinite use cuff VS two single-use cuffs for each slot in your belt)

Stackable Zipties like a security roll is what I call PURE GENIUS!
This makes Zipties better to dealing with crowds and easily lost where as cuffs are the real deal.
Can I also recommend that the Ziptieing is slightly faster then it is.. like 0.5 seconds faster or allow sec to zip tie multiplue people at once like Engineering can wrench multiplue objects.
Just abit more to incentivice use of it.

I can see Zipties being used more during group encounters where security has to tie people up fast alone without draining their baton/tazer/gun/flash to keep people down.

[Jakson]

Cuffs and zipties are in a fine place right now. This feels like too brutal of a nerf for a minimal issue.

[NanoDano]

my personal take is that sec has a super stressful role that's also forced into having a messy inventory. handcuffs are a big part of this issue. making ziptie cuffs be stackable in pairs is a big QoL fix that doesn't make one explicitly better (one infinite use cuff VS two single-use cuffs for each slot in your belt)

If this gets implemented I think stacking zip cuffs would be an excellent idea, but at the same time i feel this isnt a very big issue and like what Kotlol said, this would be awesome for helping sec arrest groups of people like on gangs