The Inevitable Mindhack Discussion Thread

[Silent Majority]

I hate being mindhacked. Because its something thats instant and takes away your round and makes it someone elses round you get to be a part of. If mindhacks had a slight use timer or something I would love them, same as a regular implanters IMO, but, the biggest issue is: mindhacking sec 99 times in a row. Or the captain.

I almost wish mindhackking a NON sec officer would make the person a little bit stronger. Like give them addrenline rush and musculature enhancement or something. Give a demonstrative perk to make your new minion tastier rather then just going for the stun baton because baton.

[Frank_Stein]

I think this is really one of those cases where the fun of the item is best found in creative thought and the social aspects of the game.

Ideally, the mindhack should contribute to the fun of both parties involved. It's the responsibility of the mindhacked player to be ride or die for the antag player. That's asking a lot from someone, and things will go a lot smoother if the antag player in turn respects the time and autonomy of the mindhacked player.

We're all here to have fun and no one likes a try hard or a spoil sport

[RelentlessGarbage]

We're all here to have fun and no one likes a try hard or a spoil sport

That's the kicker, isn't it? If being mindhacked always led to fun or engaging scenarios for the victim and the crew, people probably wouldn't have such strong negative feelings about them. But they don't, and I think that's due to a play-to-win mentality that's particularly strong in classic. Mindhacks aren't used in creative or engaging ways because that's not how you "win," it's not "meta." And so, naturally, people won't like them, even if they have the capability to lead to some of the most interesting and entertaining schemes an antag can pull off.

Changing mindhack mechanics can put a bandaid on this cultural issue in classic (and RP, to a lesser extent) - like by adding an action bar to applying a mindhack implant or having security officers resist implanting to a degree - but the gripes people have with mindhacks are only a symptom of a bigger problem that I'm afraid isn't as easy to fix.

[Lord_earthfire]

I think this is really one of those cases where the fun of the item is best found in creative thought and the social aspects of the game.

Ideally, the mindhack should contribute to the fun of both parties involved. It's the responsibility of the mindhacked player to be ride or die for the antag player. That's asking a lot from someone, and things will go a lot smoother if the antag player in turn respects the time and autonomy of the mindhacked player.

We're all here to have fun and no one likes a try hard or a spoil sport

I agree so hard with this comment. What's important is to remind yourself that you, as a mindhacker, are taking over someone elses plans for the round. So you should have a plan to make it fun.

Of course that requires a certain culture within the community to work. Then again, goon is completely full of features that can only exist because people hold themselves onto a silent social contract.

[Silent Majority]

mind hacks in classic are usually also ordered to kill themself after 18 minutes.

[Jackary]

I would like to refine exactly WHAT i dislike about mindhacks (Mainly from a classic perspective, I'm afraid that nerfing hacks from a classic perspective will ruin them from an RP perspective, so any RP players feel free to chime in.)

1: Far too cheap for what they accomplish. 3tc for whats (usually) a buddy with stuns, alot of access, etc (since we all know nobody on classic hacks anyone but sec, det, and cap) and SIX tc to have that FOREVER. This is directly associated with Stunmeta i feel, which isnt going bye bye any time soon.

2: Sec doesnt have really any tools to avoid mindhacks other than "see implanter, batong". This means you can just walk PAST a secoff with an implanter in your pocket and with ONE CLICK, have a free antag buddy.

3: Minute 0 spief rewards. This means you can hack someone who has a Revolver as a limb spief and get one of the best tools in the game for the price of like, someones trinket that they'll probably give to you. You ALSO have a buddy to help you get MORE spiefs (not as much of an issue as the other 2)

4: Multiple orders with one mindhack. This is the one that annoys me the most but I feel this'd cause a major rework, which I wouldnt want. /tg/ has 2 items that do what  a Mindhack does, but with a directive instead of multiple orders. Mindhacks WOULD be nice like this but this would ruin the RP community and hacks.

If #1 or #2 get fixed I'll be happy. Not fun having all of sec mindhacked because some guy realizes he can buy 4 hacks for the 12tc (which is every secoff slot minus 1)

[Kotlol]

I would like to refine exactly WHAT i dislike about mindhacks (Mainly from a classic perspective, I'm afraid that nerfing hacks from a classic perspective will ruin them from an RP perspective, so any RP players feel free to chime in.)

1: Far too cheap for what they accomplish. 3tc for whats (usually) a buddy with stuns, alot of access, etc (since we all know nobody on classic hacks anyone but sec, det, and cap) and SIX tc to have that FOREVER. This is directly associated with Stunmeta i feel, which isnt going bye bye any time soon.

2: Sec doesnt have really any tools to avoid mindhacks other than "see implanter, batong". This means you can just walk PAST a secoff with an implanter in your pocket and with ONE CLICK, have a free antag buddy.

3: Minute 0 spief rewards. This means you can hack someone who has a Revolver as a limb spief and get one of the best tools in the game for the price of like, someones trinket that they'll probably give to you. You ALSO have a buddy to help you get MORE spiefs (not as much of an issue as the other 2)

4: Multiple orders with one mindhack. This is the one that annoys me the most but I feel this'd cause a major rework, which I wouldnt want. /tg/ has 2 items that do what  a Mindhack does, but with a directive instead of multiple orders. Mindhacks WOULD be nice like this but this would ruin the RP community and hacks.

If #1 or #2 get fixed I'll be happy. Not fun having all of sec mindhacked because some guy realizes he can buy 4 hacks for the 12tc (which is every secoff slot minus 1)

This helps us understand things.
1: the cost.. it's fine really. I am not joking. Also I think mindhacking the det is better then a random seccy. Random seccy has more access but the Det has the Det-Net goggles who can turn beepskies into more allies.

2: HoS is IMMUNE to mindhacks due to a special implant. In my opinion... helmets should block mindhacking. Thus adding a layer to get a seccy to join your cause. But otherwise no one will use it on classic. RP... it will always be used no matter what even if you block out sec.

3: Not a problem at all... Spies can get amazing high credit rewards for "taking a picture of a monkey" to "sucky deringer for stealing the freeform module and bringing it into the HoS's office for transfer"  This is just a RNG thing.

4: Well yea that's what makes it good.

So in my opinion... helmets = immune to mindhacks as it would not effect RP as much. But.. if you truuuueeelly want to change mindhacks.
Look no futher then the thrall nerf. They now have an action bar grabbing something and are basicly SUPER MIND HACKED PLAYERS.

So if you want to nerf mindhacking..I recommend having a lore reason the "mind tries to resist" and thus being slower to some degree.
Thus showing more signs of being "Mind hacked" and since Mind hacked players mostly will end up being restrained and having the chip removed...
Having them being slower makes sense in that way.

Now I am not suggesting a "an action bar"
More like they cannot dash and thus are slower.

[Waffleloffle]

2: HoS is IMMUNE to mindhacks due to their hats.

hos is immune to mindhacks because they start with a special mindshield implant that, to the best of my knowledge, can't be found anywhere else. please do try to avoid spreading mechanical misinformation that can easily be disproven with a quick wiki check

I'm personally not a fan of the "helmets should protect from mindhacking" solution. what would it count as a helmet, just the sec helmets or any space suit? why would a miner's full-coverage space helmet provide no protection against an implant if a doofy little sec helmet somehow fully protects a secoff? this could also lead to another avenue of potential validhunting, with any secoff who wants to wear a different hat getting side-eyed even harder. just a whole can of potential worms really

[Kotlol]

2: HoS is IMMUNE to mindhacks due to their hats.

hos is immune to mindhacks because they start with a special mindshield implant that, to the best of my knowledge, can't be found anywhere else. please do try to avoid spreading mechanical misinformation that can easily be disproven with a quick wiki check

I'm personally not a fan of the "helmets should protect from mindhacking" solution. what would it count as a helmet, just the sec helmets or any space suit? why would a miner's full-coverage space helmet provide no protection against an implant if a doofy little sec helmet somehow fully protects a secoff? this could also lead to another avenue of potential validhunting, with any secoff who wants to wear a different hat getting side-eyed even harder. just a whole can of potential worms really

I didn't wiki check... I knew I tried to mindhack a HoS on RP and I was told "Just take off the hat"
But it was an implant huh? Thanks!

Also the helmet idea is not "optimal" and to be honest... I was only giving the OP an idea... I DO NOT AGREE WITH DOING IT AT ALL!
If anything the slowing is the best idea.. but I want to avoid VALID HUNTING and tipping off things... but I am just trying to help drive ideas to show how it works.

I tend to follow the "throw even the bad ideas in, so we can get to good ideas"
So when i say something even I disagree with... it could lead to someone taking that idea and expanding it into an amazing idea.

[Lord_earthfire]

Look no futher then the thrall nerf. They now have an action bar grabbing something and are basicly SUPER MIND HACKED PLAYERS.

Ah, yes, the nerf that made thralls useless for 80% of RP gimmicks and made them mostly usefull for zombie gimmicks and rampaging. No, i'm 100% against adding this to mindhacks. Even more so since this does not stop a secoff from wielding a stun baton in their hand the whole time while rampaging, which is one of the classic ® problems we talk about currently.

[Kotlol]

Look no futher then the thrall nerf. They now have an action bar grabbing something and are basicly SUPER MIND HACKED PLAYERS.

 No, i'm 100% against adding this to mindhacks.

When you delete everything after it makes me seem like suggesting THIS SPECIFIC. But in reality... 3 setences later I say: "I do not want an action bar"
I insted request a "SLOW DOWN" in movement. Aka no Dashing. Your top speed is hampered thus a mind slaved player has trouble running away and can get caught easier.

And I reitterate in another post: "I do not want to nerf mind hacks, cause I do not see anything wrong with it"

I am just "suggesting" things to get the thinking train going.

Anyhow... insted of this derailing into me responding the same thing over and over again. His points of concern on Classic makes sense. If security cannot be trusted, it becomes much much harder for players wanting to call security on classic and insted go vigilante more due to the Stun Meta.

But removal of Stun Meta will lead into another meta where people rather kill then stun...
On the other hand.. security players being antags is fun for those who roll security.

So basicly put... we kinda gotta find something to look at the complaints the OP has given us now.. and how to fix it, by either nerfing, ignoring, changing or more.
But nerfing Mindhack will effect RP where the problem is non existant. Heck... ghouls being slow is bad to me in RP even...

But atleast now we can discuss what problem the OP has with Mindhacks insted of saying "Nothing is wrong"