[MERGED PR] Merges mechanics with engineer

[Kotlol]

Giving them more options for how to power the station would be nice. Also electrical faults do not happen nearly enough, giving them a lack of purpose beyond initially getting the power running.

This is something I agree with as well. There needs to be more events or things that can go wrong with the electrical system / engine to actually warrant a repair role as a primary occupation. As it stands, the majority of the time, Engineers don't really have to repair anything unless there's an arcfiend around or a meteor hits the station, both which is highly variable by not happening at all.

What if there was a general base chance for engines to go haywire? What instead of trying to overload the engine like is attempted every shift, you have to prevent the engine from going critical? Try to keep the engine at a specific level by venting extra pressure rather than to just jank it by removing floor tiles, that kind of stuff.

We got the "vampire demon engine" event.. but... if the TEG can blow up.. (Since we do have sprites and such for it happening remember it can go critical)
Then we need something to replace it if it goes broken or a way to fix it after.

[Ikea]

The RKIT is a definite overlap between the two jobs, so moving it to something like a shared construction room wouldn't be a horrible idea. The ABC-U could also be included here along with other building supplies.

See https://github.com/goonstation/goonstation/pull/3838 for reasons why that wouldnt be great, itd run into all the challenges that this pr may bring about, with none of the upside. 

Personally, even if mechcomp and packets had enough content to be enough for a full fledged job and didnt run into the issue it runs into now where most of the stuff you can do with it is miscreant tier (which wouldnt be nearly as much of an issue if a job wasnt forced to focus on it if they wanted to actually do something), I still wouldn't support a job just for that. I'd much prefer if interacting with packets was something that was spread out (even if indirectly for most jobs), instead of one sole job for it.

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Giving them more options for how to power the station would be nice. Also electrical faults do not happen nearly enough, giving them a lack of purpose beyond initially getting the power running.

This is something I agree with as well. There needs to be more events or things that can go wrong with the electrical system / engine to actually warrant a repair role as a primary occupation. As it stands, the majority of the time, Engineers don't really have to repair anything unless there's an arcfiend around or a meteor hits the station, both which is highly variable by not happening at all.

I agree with the rough sentiment of this, even though Id prefer to give them additional "challenges" when they decide to put in more work for the electrical grid, and having this work be rewarding to the crew and the engineer, instead of more challenges for simply existing (as the latter tends to lead to toxicity when engineers are unable to help, when the former gets people gracious when an engineer helps them out). However this pr isn't really about that aspect of engineering. The engineer job will still have issues after this and this will by no means be a silver bullet. There will still be more work that can (and should) be put into making sure the engineering side of engineering is solid, this pr is more focused on the construction side. This wont fix all the issues with constructing things as engineer of course, however it should hopefully help a ton.

[Retrino]

mechanics already really feels like a subjob of engineer, in a similar way that chemists are a subjob of scientists, just lacking the individual label. a personal positive of this pr for me is getting rid of the "whos job is it to fix things?" question comes up fairly often whenever something needs fixing. you could separate them into structural versus technological repairs, but... why would that really be necessary? either are entirely capable of both, the only gate being engineer's access to the mech lab or the mechanics access to more repair tools

i personally dont see mechanics using mats from engineering as an issue because they Already Do All The Time, along with anyone else who can hack doors. as long as cargo is up and running, getting more materials isnt an issue i see really becoming a problem simply because of the combining of engineers with mechanics. anything specific to a mechanic could easily be done by an engineer, more people in the mech lab just means more mats needed to suit everyones projects, which means qms are seeing a lot more interaction later into rounds

also think this would largely give a good step in the direction of engineers being construction people. conworker being offed was unfortunate for people who genuinely just liked to build stuff, so i think this role being made into a structure *and* machines guy will make construction a lot less anti qol

[Conchuckter]

The RKIT is a definite overlap between the two jobs, so moving it to something like a shared construction room wouldn't be a horrible idea. The ABC-U could also be included here along with other building supplies.

See https://github.com/goonstation/goonstation/pull/3838 for reasons why that wouldnt be great, itd run into all the challenges that this pr may bring about, with none of the upside. 

Personally, even if mechcomp and packets had enough content to be enough for a full fledged job and didnt run into the issue it runs into now where most of the stuff you can do with it is miscreant tier (which wouldnt be nearly as much of an issue if a job wasnt forced to focus on it if they wanted to actually do something), I still wouldn't support a job just for that. I'd much prefer if interacting with packets was something that was spread out (even if indirectly for most jobs), instead of one sole job for it.

Your statement of this solution having "none of the upside" is a massive overstatement, many people have brung up that the main reason they don't do building projects is their lack of access to the RKIT, and this is also one of reason's many people break into MechLab. Also "itd run into all the challenges that this pr may bring about" is just incorrect, at most it could bring one of the three being: "The surplus of people with access to the rkit will make it much harder for security to track people who print out batons and other bad stuff." Which as you've outlined could be easily fixed by adding some simple logging.

At the end of the day even if you made packets wide spread (which they practically are already, anyone can do packets) the main users would still be Mechanics, as the job congregates people who want to work on niche features while still preforming a job. Making the uses of packets aid the station greater would give Mechanics even more purpose and would work to remove their stigma of being only used for harming the round.

[Ikea]

Your statement of this solution having "none of the upside" is a massive overstatement, many people have brung up that the main reason they don't do building projects is their lack of access to the RKIT, and this is also one of reason's many people break into MechLab. Also "itd run into all the challenges that this pr may bring about" is just incorrect, at most it could bring one of the three being: "The surplus of people with access to the rkit will make it much harder for security to track people who print out batons and other bad stuff." Which as you've outlined could be easily fixed by adding some simple logging.

At the end of the day even if you made packets wide spread (which they practically are already, anyone can do packets) the main users would still be Mechanics, as the job congregates people who want to work on niche features while still preforming a job. Making the uses of packets aid the station greater would give Mechanics even more purpose and would work to remove their stigma of being only used for harming the round.

Sorry, most of the downsides and few of the upsides. You still have that muddying of who is set to do construction, with engineers now having access to the RKIT itd be weird to not give them the scanner, you worsen the aim of mechanics and make them even more of a fuck around job, and you now have engineers promoted to raid there own materials for mats as well as mechanics. 

I think there's definitely many changes you can do to mechcomp and packets to make them better, however I see no reason why these changes would benefit from being the sole thing a job does (and again I think itd be a bad thing for a single job because packets are inherently semi obscure and mechcomp is inherently gimmicky, the lack of a definitive goal or semi basic feedback loop doesnt really work for mechanics and focusing this job even more on this I think would worsen that.). It's not like engineers are suffocating out of a lack of stuff to do.

[Conchuckter]

Your statement of this solution having "none of the upside" is a massive overstatement, many people have brung up that the main reason they don't do building projects is their lack of access to the RKIT, and this is also one of reason's many people break into MechLab. Also "itd run into all the challenges that this pr may bring about" is just incorrect, at most it could bring one of the three being: "The surplus of people with access to the rkit will make it much harder for security to track people who print out batons and other bad stuff." Which as you've outlined could be easily fixed by adding some simple logging.

At the end of the day even if you made packets wide spread (which they practically are already, anyone can do packets) the main users would still be Mechanics, as the job congregates people who want to work on niche features while still preforming a job. Making the uses of packets aid the station greater would give Mechanics even more purpose and would work to remove their stigma of being only used for harming the round.

Sorry, most of the downsides and few of the upsides. You still have that muddying of who is set to do construction, with engineers now having access to the RKIT itd be weird to not give them the scanner, you worsen the aim of mechanics and make them even more of a fuck around job, and you now have engineers promoted to raid there own materials for mats as well as mechanics. 

I think there's definitely many changes you can do to mechcomp and packets to make them better, however I see no reason why these changes would benefit from being the sole thing a job does (and again I think itd be a bad thing for a single job because packets are inherently semi obscure and mechcomp is inherently gimmicky, the lack of a definitive goal or semi basic feedback loop doesnt really work for mechanics and focusing this job even more on this I think would worsen that.). It's not like engineers are suffocating out of a lack of stuff to do.

Of course you'd give them the scanner, how would they use it without it? That's honestly quite self explanatory. Also its not raiding when its their own items, the only reason that is a problem is when a job is forced to steal items from another one. You also make it out that moving the RKIT would halt any chance of Mechanics using it, which is most definitely not the case. Mechanics would likely still be the most prevalent user however in the event of station repair it'd be there for Engineers to use.

MechComp/Packets are not the only thing mechanics do, we are in general tinkerers, and specialize in working with the computerized aspects of the station. Giving niche features a job that specializes in them lets more people get exposed to these mechanics, and gives a place for people to learn without having additional responsibilities.

[Ikea]

Of course you'd give them the scanner, how would they use it without it? That's honestly quite self explanatory. Also its not raiding when its their own items, the only reason that is a problem is when a job is forced to steal items from another one. You also make it out that moving the RKIT would halt any chance of Mechanics using it, which is most definitely not the case. Mechanics would likely still be the most prevalent user however in the event of station repair it'd be there for Engineers to use.

MechComp/Packets are not the only thing mechanics do, we are in general tinkerers, and specialize in working with the computerized aspects of the station. Giving niche features a job that specializes in them lets more people get exposed to these mechanics, and gives a place for people to learn without having additional responsibilities.

I was refering to the syndie scanner, apologies for not specifying there. While it wouldnt be as bad for the aim as completely removing RKIT access, it'd still worsen the lack of focus as it shifts the job of repairing machinery more to engineers as engineers already spawn with all the other repair equipment. Also the issue with mechanics stealing equipment isnt just the fact that its stealing, its also that it denies others the ability to use these resources for construction/repairs. This would be fixed by having engineers spawn with sheets, however it still increases this issue.

Mechanics are tinkerers with... mechcomp and packets (I am counting computer stuff in packets even though its technically not packets). Id prefer encouraging people to use these mechanics by just giving an incentive to use these mechanics, instead of forcing a job to focus on these things by them not having much else to do. The way you interact with these systems without having additional responsibilities is either go staffy and enter tech lab, or just talk to your team, or just dont do any of that and walk straight to mechlab no one will care. This change pushes you towards caring about the engine and the station, but it definitely doesnt force you to do that. 

Of course you'd give them the scanner, how would they use it without it? That's honestly quite self explanatory. Also its not raiding when its their own items, the only reason that is a problem is when a job is forced to steal items from another one. You also make it out that moving the RKIT would halt any chance of Mechanics using it, which is most definitely not the case. Mechanics would likely still be the most prevalent user however in the event of station repair it'd be there for Engineers to use.

MechComp/Packets are not the only thing mechanics do, we are in general tinkerers, and specialize in working with the computerized aspects of the station. Giving niche features a job that specializes in them lets more people get exposed to these mechanics, and gives a place for people to learn without having additional responsibilities.

[Zafhset]

While there's a lot of discussion here, realistically I feel this would result more often (than not) that 8 full mechanic-style players and 0 engineer-style players take up the slots.

Consider how mechlab is almost always fully manned, versus engineering.
People who DO want to tinker with the engine may actually struggle to get the slots as it is now increasingly occupied for non-engine stuff.

[Ikea]

Hopefully people do both, if people just spend ten minutes setting up engineer then mess around with mechcomp Ill still probably count that as a win.

[babayetu83]

Hopefully people do both, if people just spend ten minutes setting up engineer then mess around with mechcomp Ill still probably count that as a win.

i don't think crossing your fingers and hoping it turns out well is a good mindset for game design

[MetricDuck]

tbh the CE tends to monopolise the engine anyway

[Lord_earthfire]

I think we will see now that it is merged. Personally i hope this will turn more engineers into "yellow staffies", with the few that actually enjoy the engine being there to take care of the engine. but now the whole thing is left to even more to chance than it already was. Differentiation has its purpose.

[saccharineChampion]

i don't think crossing your fingers and hoping it turns out well is a good mindset for game design

Normally, no, but the nature of this particular game and of this change make it much more palatable. By the former I mean how easily and quickly small adjustments can be made, the simplicity of reverting a merge, and that the engine isn't a "set up quickly or things will go downhill fast" matter; most maps have solars, and if lights start going out, it's easy to attend to the engine before equipment is affected.

[Ikea]

[quote pid="187695" dateline="1666420417"]

Hopefully people do both, if people just spend ten minutes setting up engineer then mess around with mechcomp Ill still probably count that as a win.

i don't think crossing your fingers and hoping it turns out well is a good mindset for game design
[/quote]

The reason why I have that mindset is that while I have very good reason to believe itll work well (see the previous pages of the thread), ultimately this game is complicated and I cant predict everything. Now that its merged, there's not much work that needs to be done outside of watching (assuming all goes well).