A Meta-Friending/Clique Discussion.

[Kotlol]

I'll be honest here and go with...
If you want private RPing, take it somewhere private!

But if you are doing a scenerio on goon, you better accept the route won't go anywhere you want.
Players will interupt or hijack your scenerio.
Players will outdo your scenerio and drag interaction away from you.
Sometimes your gimmick won't stick.
Sometimes you get a huge success.

But what you can't do is EXCLUDE people or IGNORE people.
If you do that... YOU NEED GTFO and go find your personal SS13 server to do things on insted.
Goon is an OPEN COMMUNITY. So if you want your own GOON EXPIRENCE for JUST YOU AND YOUR FRIENDS MAKE YOUR OWN!

Be it RP or Classic. Cliques aren't welcome.

If I am on the server, I am always being open to let things happen. Heck as Captain I do dumb gimmicks all the time to invite players to join in it, rebel against it or have antags through a wrench in it.
I ban weed and drugs? Have people be sneaky? Petition for it? Have an election to kick me out? Start a gang to smuggle drugs?
Do those things.

I say this. Whatever your thing is in RP, have it be open for everyone. Cause if you don't.... Don't come to an OPEN COMMUNITY!

[Emrsnn]

It would be lying to say that I don't benefit from or even enjoy the feeling that people treat me like I'm in some way "vetted", however the bottom line is that new players don't hold the privilege of having some well-known "main character" personality that they can retreat to when they're tired of being excluded.

i dont even have the creativity to make a successful main character, i simply rip a name from elsewhere that i think sounds cool, and then work on game mechanics rather than some kind of personality

Just to clarify, I'm differentiating between "character that I main" and """main character""" here. I'm referring to characters that are around often being treated like they're the main character of the story, or that what's happening to them over the course of the round is the main plotline. I feel that sort of treatment should be reserved for antag plotlines (Which, I admit, is a bit of a flawed philosophy given the recent uptick of antags only interacting with their OOC friends, thus creating the same issue- even if it appears to be out of fear of getting validhunted)

I appreciate that you brought up character personality because after I sent my first reply, I had the thought that generally, characters that are more built around what their backstory or lore is- as opposed to characters built around personality traits or how they interact with others- are less approachable to new players. That's not to say that characters shouldn't have a backstory- all of my own even have at least a brief one- however, if their entire existence is dependent on being some other character's son or some mysterious lore thing that they make the topic of every conversation, it could give an impression to new players that they just don't know enough to interact.

I think the question that we should be trying to answer here isn't "how to we get rid of cliques" but rather "how do we turn these cliques into friend groups that work to include others." (and if you're feeling particularly social, Actively approaching others as opposed to simply being approachable.)

p.s. yeah science seems to be a bit of a magnet for trouble and a hotspot for ahelps, but that could be a whole thread on it's own.

[Roddy]

When my fiancé first started playing, he tended towards low pop RP because he was new and wanted a slower environment. And, miserably a few days after, he told me he didn’t want to play anymore, because no one talked to him (at best), or at worst he was being actively ignored all the time. He genuinely told me he thought that that’s what all the servers would end up being. That’s the perspective of a new player.

I personally don’t play lowpop RP for the same reasons. The idea of a lower population to roleplay with is appealing to me, but the cliques are so bad that, well. Never again have I played since the first few times. 

It has happened on goon3 RP too. I distinctly remember becoming, well, frazzled and upset one round, because I put a lot of effort into making a silly chem for everyone to try. But when I approached groups with it to start roleplay, I was ignored, told to leave, or people were just genuinely rude. At one point I even despondently asked someone if they’d like to try it, and broke character somewhat by spilling what had happened, and all but begged them for some sort of interaction. They responded, ‘meh.’ Closed the door. 

Anyway! If someone is visibly having a hard time RPing and being ignored, please try to interact with them. I’m not sure how else you could manage this sort of problem, but I figured I’d say my side of it too.

[nefarious6th]

wanted to also say ty to bigbro, bazhaar, mab, and Roddy for posting this thread and bringing up that these behaviors are not potentially, but are already forcing people away from goon.
I forgot in my initial comment because I was only thinking how this behavior has affected me, but I've got at least 1 hand's worth of friends that dont play on goon anymore because of these issues.
and I guess, if people are having these issues from the beginning of this year all the way to now, I hope there's something we can do and do Fast if we truly are to have a new cohort of players arrive within the next few weeks.

[colossusqw]

I remember the moments where i went back to lowpop after taking breaks and it really hit me that people were just not interacting with me, it can be a really shitty feeling to be in a server and feel like everyone else is already having fun in their closed groups and you're left there because you're not part of the clique. I'm not sure of what can be done to fix this, seing that cliques are so easy to fall into any many times people do it without even realizing they're fostering a climate that pushes people away, but i sure hope something is done. At least on the individual level, i think the best thing anyone can do is reach out to people they don't remember having RPd with much or haven't seen at all with more frequency, but on a larger community wide scale, i have no idea. PS: got a flu and my head hurts + i should be asleep so if i just said something eggregious apologies.

[Cal]

As a player I always did my best to include literally everyone I possibly could - I'd say hello to people in the halls, invite them over to come chat, ask people questions and just get them involved. I tried to encourage these habits in other players as well, it's basically the best way to play - Be inclusive, not exclusive.

If someone walks in on your deep, private RP or whatever, invite them over and ask THEM what's up, maybe you can all give input on Why Your Job At NT Sucks or whatever. Just try.

[DioChasek]

I will say this much, although there is pain as I read some of these stories, compared to a lot of other online communities I would like to think we are pretty good at reaching out to new players. It is good to be reminded that we are all capable of doing things in a more inclusive and welcoming way.

[babayetu83]

I will say this much, although there is pain as I read some of these stories, compared to a lot of other online communities I would like to think we are pretty good at reaching out to new players. It is good to be reminded that we are all capable of doing things in a more inclusive and welcoming way.

yeah the more i read and the more i see admin posts saying to adminhelp that kind of thing i feel my stomach churn. the moment you start yelling at people over a creative endeavor is sort of the point where i would personally lose interest.

simply i think maybe there should be an addition to the rp rules. kind of like how in the rules there is such a clause for traitors going too far and doing stuff to prevent the round from ending. 2 completely different situations but i feel like the root is there. maybe something should be in the rules about there being a soft expectation to try and work with and include other people into your roleplay instead of sidelining people. not that you HAVE to go out of your way to talk to every person you can and do stuff with them, but, to just try and avoid intentionally excluding people.

[Munien]

I'm glad you made this post, an I'm glad a lot of people got to tell their experiences with it. Pretty much all I wanted to say on the topic has been expressed by others so I'll keep it brief.

I do see this behaviour quite a lot, and it's mostly in RP and mostly on low-pop. God knows I've spent countless shifts walking around in circles looking for someone to interact with but can't quite seem to fit in anywhere. I understand just how much it sucks to feel left out of things. Unfortunately, I find in some cases this bahaviour extends to the goon discord, where a group of people who interact with eachother a whole lot in-game do so in the discord which can easily make one feel left out or kind of lost in the discussion if they aren't up to date on the latest happenings, though this also ties into the issues I have around characters with a lot of background lore that makes it hard to interact with them without being a part of it.

It's a very fine line between having good friends who you want to hang out with a lot because you enjoy their company and 'meta-cliqueing', and I'm sure a lot of people (I'm also not proposing that I've never been guilty of it) walk that line simply think they are just enjoying the game with a friend, unaware that they are excluding someone from joining in. I'm not quite sure what the solution is, or if there really is one for that matter. In a game where people have stories, relationships and lore, it's hard for these sort of connections to grow naturally, I guess being vigilant about it, ahelping if it's becoming an issue, and working on being more inclusive to people are all I can think of to do.

[walpvrgis]

yeah the more i read and the more i see admin posts saying to adminhelp that kind of thing i feel my stomach churn. the moment you start yelling at people over a creative endeavor is sort of the point where i would personally lose interest.

 
I mean, we don't yell at people over creative endeavors, and I'm bummed out if this is the main takeaway from my post. We're asking people to adminhelp this stuff because we do try to talk to players about it in a constructive manner. I know myself and other RP-main admins care about the RP community a lot and very much want to foster a much more welcoming environment.

Idk. To be candid, I have very limited mental bandwidth for this subject because yeah, I've been hurting due it for a while. I'm kinda at a loss for what else we can do aside from talk to people who are exclusionary. We already touch on this topic in the new RP Rules, Rule 6 to be specific;

Be kind to other players. Be respectful and considerate of other players, as their experiences are just as important as your own. Do not use LOOC or other means of communication to put down other players or accuse them of rulebreaking. If your problem with another player extends to rulebreaking, press F1 to contact the admins. It is your responsibility to respect the boundaries of others when you RP. If you feel uncomfortable, or worry that people are uncomfortable, don’t be afraid to use LOOC to communicate. Furthermore, do not advantage your friends in game or exclude others from roleplaying opportunities without good cause.

[avimour]

i think the worst part about all of this, meta-cliques in general, is that a lot of the time the people participating in them don't even realize what they're doing. that's why ahelping it is super important, so admins can let these people Know what they're doing and hopefully they make moves to change that.
i also agree with munien, that rp-chat can feel very like, left out. and adding on that it feels like if you don't talk a lot in there with your character names displayed that you're less likely to be sought out for rp in-game.
i'm a low-pop advocate, sylvester main for life, and it feels even more lonely as of late. like i started playing last year when low pop was basically 5 people online, and it didn't feel as lonely as 20 pop does now-a-days. i've rarely been playing because of it, and instead taken a step back to just observing, and just mentor mousing when needed.
on the topic of having to be a known name,    it really really really sucks. i play new characters a lot, i don't tell anyone that i play them, and do my best not to looc unless needed. and the just like, getting Ignored by people until they realize it's you playing said character hurts a lot.
i think the only way to like, change all of this, is up to the people in these cliques. it's up to them to start including more people, to start talking more to unknown people, to start actively trying to be more open. and like i said before, a lot of times these people don't Realize they're being cliquey, so ahelping is important in this manner. esp since there's a chance they probably don't read the forums and won't see this convo.

also another thing, i know azones have like a limit to the amount of people who can do them until they become like, too many people, but i really think if you're going to do an azone with some people you should at least try to include someone random into the adventure. like, i was going to do retention with two other people, had talked in DMs about it before round, and we all three saw a scientist we never really interacted with a lot just vibing, invited them, and they made the azone way much better.
just going off to an azone in a small group without talking to anyone else about it stinks.

[babayetu83]

yeah the more i read and the more i see admin posts saying to adminhelp that kind of thing i feel my stomach churn. the moment you start yelling at people over a creative endeavor is sort of the point where i would personally lose interest.

 
I mean, we don't yell at people over creative endeavors, and I'm bummed out if this is the main takeaway from my post. We're asking people to adminhelp this stuff because we do try to talk to players about it in a constructive manner. I know myself and other RP-main admins care about the RP community a lot and very much want to foster a much more welcoming environment.

Idk. To be candid, I have very limited mental bandwidth for this subject because yeah, I've been hurting due it for a while. I'm kinda at a loss for what else we can do aside from talk to people who are exclusionary. We already touch on this topic in the new RP Rules, Rule 6 to be specific;

Be kind to other players. Be respectful and considerate of other players, as their experiences are just as important as your own. Do not use LOOC or other means of communication to put down other players or accuse them of rulebreaking. If your problem with another player extends to rulebreaking, press F1 to contact the admins. It is your responsibility to respect the boundaries of others when you RP. If you feel uncomfortable, or worry that people are uncomfortable, don’t be afraid to use LOOC to communicate. Furthermore, do not advantage your friends in game or exclude others from roleplaying opportunities without good cause.

ok perhaps yell at was the wrong word. i did not mean to say that from my perspective that i think the admin team would castigate people for their behavior. but i know some people can take it the wrong way which i think could potentially be awkward.

[jan.antilles]

ok perhaps yell at was the wrong word. i did not mean to say that from my perspective that i think the admin team would castigate people for their behavior. but i know some people can take it the wrong way which i think could potentially be awkward.

Being delicate about things like navigating sensitive interpersonal relationships and balancing both inclusiveness and building existing friendships is absolutely a priority. The admin team has no desire to make players feel worse about themselves, especially when they're doing something as positive and normal as making friends.

Please give us the benefit of the doubt here, that we truly want what is best for the RP community, and that we are asking people to bring things to us so that we can intervene in a productive and helpful way.

[Kotlol]

Pretty much the sum up this topic:
"Don't be rude, don't exclude"

If you TRUELY want to play on goon with a private thing. Don't be on station. Go somewhere else and do whatever there.
If you get found out, deal with it.

[colossusqw]

Pretty much the sum up this topic:
"Don't be rude, don't exclude"

If you TRUELY want to play on goon with a private thing. Don't be on station. Go somewhere else and do whatever there.
If you get found out, deal with it.

That can have it's issues, though. There have been multiple rounds where i've joined the station, walked around confused as to why the pop didn't match the amount of people around, cryoed because there was virtually no one to interact with, and found 10 people radio silent in some hidden away place having their own RP.. I get that people want to have some more private interactions but when a significant portion of a round(expecially in lowpop) is just impossible to reach or even assess if still alive you start to have problems.