A separate thread to discuss antags (ft. how it relates to metacliquing)

[Emrsnn]

I think this conversation has been a long time coming since despite the new clarified RP rules (Thank you again, by the way. Much easier on the eyes.) there's still disagreement on how to treat antagonists IC. 

Evidently, we aren't some unanimous hivemind that all hold the same ideal for what a good round or good RP is.* To me personally, this has been showing itself in the amount of venting I've been seeing/hearing- both in the public discord and in PMs from friends- about the way antags are handled on RP. Everyone has their own interpretation of when preventive action becomes validhunting**, and when prolonging RP becomes ignoring antags. I think we're all in agreement that both happen, and both have the potential to ruin someone's round.

It was briefly touched on a few times in the metacliquing thread that there tends to be issues with OOC friendships affecting the IC treatment of antags, but (as far as I saw) it was never fully discussed to the degree that I think it ought to be. 

Here's some examples of the type of concerns I'm referring to:

• Antags always interacting with the same people (to avoid getting their RP shut down, to perpetuate a specific story line, or any other reason)
  
• Security members hesitating to arrest someone in a syndicate suit, an obvious vampire, etc. (because they're a friend, to avoid inturrupting RP, or any other reason)
  
• Seeking out antags, not with the goal of stopping them but rather with the goal of becoming a part of the antag plotline for that round 
  
• Defending an IC son, best friend, mom, etc. unconditionally- not only from antags but also from security in situations where the friend is an antag
  
• Placing pressure on both security and antags to escalate toward more violence between each-other (as opposed to something more slow-paced or quiet)
  

(This isn't meant to serve as a docket of negative complaints, but rather just an objective list of issues that I've seen personally or have heard other people express concern over)


My goal for this is that we can pool together some general thoughts and opinions on how to make rounds as enjoyable as possible not only for for antags and sec, but also everyone else. 

(I've just noticed it's 4:30am, so please forgive me on errors for now and I'll clarify in the morning if needed haha)
*Admins included, it's important to remember that they're not guaranteed- or expected- to make the exact same call on every single situation when it comes to this issue
**Hunting down antags- generally by using OOC knowledge- for the purpose of finding the antag and killing/stopping them as fast as possible, right from roundstart. It's referred to as validhunting because on most servers antags are valid for anyone to kill.

[Kotlol]

I do notice alot of these points you point out.

When I am an antag doing silly things, I get ignored, heck I once got busted and still got ignored as an antagonist.

The one of Security NOT arresting an antagonist right away or executing them is that RP Security has to do BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT.
Alot of antags can give antagonistic hints or show they are an antag but security won't act on them because.. we would be preventing Antags from doing anything.

I once had a round on RP where a MECHANIC used Packet tracking to learn that we two robotcists were Spy/thieves. Reported it to Security, Security arrested us, took our stuff while we did 0 actual crime yet cept owning contraband in our closet. That was not fun... till I decided to be an annoying antagonist shouting illegal evidence and wanting a lawyer. Let's say it's not really fun for an antagonist to get busted for "getting gear via their PDA that packet tracking can find"

But... just cause someone is a vampire, doesn't mean they are "Kill or arrest only" ..Only if they assault other players and we have proof of it.
If someone has contraband, we have to warn them to get it approved and leave em with a warning, cause anyone can have contraband technically (Barkeep and Chaplain start with guns for peeps sake). Someone wearing a syndicate suit? Could be from an A-zone, but we warn them NOT to do that.
It's so if the antagonist wants to do somehting crazy and fun... we don't shut them down just cause: "Obivious antagonist is Obivious"
If someone is a changeling? Did they kill? No? Well then leave em.

Though I do have a problem when IC best friends, lovers and such start defending someone's heavy crime and start saving them from security.
It means now I gotta arrest them too for assaulting an officer....
I also had alot of times that someone escalated a sitution with an antagonist, just on the basis they saw them having an antagonist abillity. And we ended up arresting them cause ASSAULT. To only repeat it over and over again. in the end that Antagonist did nothing wrong as it was a passive trouble maker trying to pull gags with it's antagonistic abillities, wich is fine!

So yea... people need to learn that you cannot beat up an antagonist just cause they are one on RP. Until you have to self defend or save someone is it fair game to beat em up. People also need to learn that... if the person you are saving is an antagonist and you are attacking security.. they will arrest you.. and may throw an A-help to self antaging.
Heck I once was an antagonist detective but I didn't do anything antagonistic cause others were being super antagonistic.. so I used my antagonist tools/abillities to shut them down or kill em. I even once killed a shitter as an antagonist as well.. cause he peeved me off as a charater too. (though I ahelp those now too)

[Glamurio]

Very fair points being raised, both for and against RP relating to antagonists. When playing Security, I try my hardest to give every single antagonist a chance to play out whatever their fantasy is, even if it's extremely obvious that they are an antagonist. This particularly pertains to actions committed by antagonists that do not harm other players. An arcfiend draining power in an abandoned part of the station doesn't really impede anyone, neither is it anyone's issue if the local vampire starts asking medbay for blood bags. Those aren't really problems, but instead make a round more interesting.

As an antagonist, in all honesty, the biggest issue is that it's a dice roll whether or not you have RP-friendly security officers or not. I've had rounds where a HoS caught me with a cloaking device and a Spy PDA and let me walk right after, and then I've had rounds where I was taking a hostage in an RP scenario, and was promptly gunned down before even finishing my sentence. The real issue is that security simply has too much authority and power to the point where sometimes you can't even allow yourself to RP a scenario to its full extent because you know that security will mess it up, so you go for a different plotline that's much more boring but way more effective.

I've once seen a doctor place a mindhack cloning module on the cloning pod in medbay, and within 5 minutes someone took it off. As players, of course we all know that will mindhack you, but would it have been so bad to leave it up there for at least one ore two people to get mindhacked before destroying any hopes at the attempt? Instead, you have to build your own private cloning lab and murder people forcefully in some alley instead to even have it be worthwhile, which is much more effective, but frankly, not nearly as fun, because part of the fun in the other scenario comes from everyone knowing what's up but playing along.

People roleplaying with each other in metacliques is largely something that happens because too many people forget that they play on RP. If we could streamline that properly from both sides, maybe we could nip both of those issues in the bud.

[Emrsnn]

The one of Security NOT arresting an antagonist right away or executing them is that RP Security has to do BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT.
Alot of antags can give antagonistic hints or show they are an antag but security won't act on them because.. we would be preventing Antags from doing anything.

While I personally don't have an issue with security players pretending not to notice things, drawing out conversations that would lead to an arrest, etc., I do take issue with the difference in who receives that treatment. It's much easier for people to give leeway to people they know OOC, not even necessarily friends, but rather people that they know have more experience, would create a story they're personally interested in, wouldn't use their fun traitor toys to grief, etc. 

Though I do have a problem when IC best friends, lovers and such start defending someone's heavy crime and start saving them from security.

This made me remember another point that I really feel strongly about-
Not getting the desired outcome is not synonymous with breaking character. Sometimes a mean character can be nice. Sometimes a character that would never execute someone will give into pressure from the rest of crew. Sometimes a character believes their best friend is in the wrong. This is something I've personally struggled with the concept of in the past, playing a character that has strong opinions on just about everything. As I've been trying to find solutions to my bad habit I've come to realize that not only does not requiring a situation to end in favor of my character offer more possibilities for everyone else involved, but also it creates more possibilities for me to RP things that just don't happen much otherwise. (In example, feeling defeated, what point they say "alright, fine, you win.", making a mistake on impulse only to realize it later) Everyone wins when we occasionally let things go ""wrong"", especially when it benefits someone new, who could benefit from being a bit more in-control as they get comfortable with both game mechanics and the community.

---

If I could only make one point, it would be the importance of giving the benefit of the doubt not IC, but OOC. I think there's a tendency in the culture of this game to be weary of anyone new. Any time SS13 gets any publicity we all cower in fear at the prospect of an influx of new people. (and while Goonstation has a reputation for being one of the more welcoming servers, that doesn't mean we can't always be searching for new ways to always do a bit better.)

Frankly, I believe we all benefit from not equating new- or even just unfamiliar-  player with shitter. This applies when reacting to antags, security, and any other role.

[Waffleloffle]

[edit on 10/08/2022: I was informed that I was mistaking the opinions expressed by admins on sec play on the rp channel as reflections of official policy, rather than recognizing them as opinion. I apologize for the misunderstanding and have removed the parts of this post that push this narrative]

many secoffs end up validhunting the hell out of any antagonist who shows even the slightest mechanical signs of being antagonists, unless those antagonists happen to be Their Friends, in which case they get leeway to properly rp. antags who aren't part of that select group don't end up having the leeway to actually escalate because of this, and are either forced to go loud and deadly ASAP or to be as subtle about their antag stuff as possible. it's pushed to be either all or nothing, and the subtle option, which lends antags more freedom in theory, ends up making for a really unsatisfying story because you just can't RISK bringing more people in lest you get supertazed and immediately put down for it

conversely, the upwards trend of the only active antags on rp being ones that will immediately robust you into the sun leaves secoffs more likely to treat any antag as an issue to be resolved, rather than an opportunity to build up the story of the round. this, too, is why some sec regulars regularly go Very Easy on antags whose player they're already familiar with: it's someone who they can trust not to fuck them over narratively. it ends in a great round for them, but a boring or frustrating round for everyone else on-station

don't get me wrong, I fucking hate when an antag gimmick is just "I'm nice I'm your friend (: I'll do nothing evil ALL round" without any level of intrigue or subterfuge. I'm not arguing that anything like that should be normalized or encouraged. interestingly, this is an antag playstyle that I've seen on the rise, as of late, since it leaves sec with no sturdy reason to go after them. in an environment where sec is geared to take ANY reason to go after antags, I suppose it's only natural that people would look for some way around that in order to make sure they can Play The Game They Came Here To Play.

[Kotlol]

"I'm nice I'm your friend (: I'll do nothing evil ALL round" 

When I do what I say a "Nice Antagonist" pretty much means... "Won't do evil if not provoked"

This means if someone PROVOKES me. I will break the law.
I been a detective antag alot of times and alot of those times I tend to be neutral/friendly unless provoked.. then I will murder someone.
Clown lubing the floors? "I AM THE LAW! AND I SETENCE YOU TO DEATH!"
Security not agreeing? Well suddenly security records ain't working.
Command being incompitent? Time to stage a coup.

It's more fun that way to being a friendly, cause now your an antagonist cause someone provoked you.
Though the provoking happens more as Chaplain antag. My lord.. how many times I was a chaplain Changeling and I pretended to be a goddess to end up converting people to be good (like me) , killing them to join the collective, putting them to sleep, giving them nightmares for DOUBTING my abillities with LSD.


So yea... if you want to be a FRIENDLY ANTAG, it means to me: You will start antagging when someone pisses your charater off and escalating it to even departments for revenge.

[GrungoFlorbit]

I don't have a huge amount of useful info to add, but here is my two cents.
TLDR: Valid hunting bad, crew should only be fighting antags if absolutely necessary(IE sec isn't around/haven't arrived). Defending antags from being arrested bad, even if you have an IC relationship. Vamp, ling, and arc are in a bad spot for RP and could really use a bit of a change. Traitor and wraith good for RP.

I personally think that the new push to have antags and sec be more aggressive to each other, while good in theory, has only led to a rise in validhunting. I've seen more non-security crew members hearing about antags over the radio, and sprinting to go fight the antagonist. It makes having actual RP with security even harder as crew members try to escalate both parties or just flat out attack the antag mid talk.

When it comes to IC relationships, You obviously should not be defending an antag from security, at all. If your IC Parent/partner/whatever is being arrested and is clearly an antag, you should not be fighting sec. Want to ask to bring them food while they are in a cell? want to ask to speak to them or visit? sure. Actively shove sec over to let them get away? no, that's essentially self antagging.
If you are in the room and someone you have a IC relationship is being murdered? You can and should try and get them out of their with you while calling security (Unless sec is there already). you shouldn't be trying to kill that antag completely, just get them away from you. But that shouldn't be a IC relationship thing, if your in the bar, and someone walks up and starts murdering a staff assistant in view of everyone? call security and tell them to cut it out, give them a few shoves. You wouldn't and shouldn't just let someone be murdered directly in front of you. Antags should be killing at least somewhat secretly, or expect resistance from the crew around them.

A lot of issues i see around antags also comes down to the lack of actual RP options. Vampires, Lings, and Arcfiends are very limited into their non-combat abilities. Arcfiends have wire riding and are immune to lightning, Vampires can turn into bats, and Changelings can Shape shift, LSD sting, and DNA sting.
The problems occur when you look at the rest of the kit..
Arcfiends have very little reason to actually fight the crew, they don't drain enough energy to put a dent in a proper engineering team, and have no reason to purposely break APCs, as that just makes their life harder as well. With the push to increase violence between sec and antags, they have no reason to ever be loud enough to be spotted. You can get all the energy you need from maintenance APCs and never need to actually fight.

Vampires and Changelings, on the other hand, can no longer just eat random NPCs. Which is a good change, honestly, but leads to the exact opposite issue for them. Vampires and changelings are highly encouraged to be hyper aggressive. If you get into a fight with security and have no blood or DNA? your probably going to lose, and with the current state of security you will probably be executed. So what is an antag to do but murder early on to get the supplies they need to survive a security fight. But that means you have two options as a vampire or one as a changeling. Vampires can take some blood, and leave the crew member alive so they can continue RPing and being part of the round, maybe steal some blood from medical, but then you risk sec coming and cracking down on you. You could also just kill them, and remove most of their ability to RP. You could thrall them, or as a changeling you could make them a ling spawn. Is that good? is that bad? I'm not sure, but I think it needs work. I've seen enough complaints about both to tell me that much.

On the other hand, Traitor is in an AMAZING spot currently. Tons of options, loads of neat RP tools, many non-lethal options, and loads of lethal ones. If you want to just 1v6 security, you can. if you want to sneak around and be a bit less aggressive, go right ahead, you have the tools and options for it. its the best antag, easily on RP, with Wraith being a pretty distant second (though i have very little experience with the new wraith stuff, which seems incredible for RP and i really cant wait to see more of it).

Anyway thats all i have to say

(Oh also i wish wizard worked on RP so badly, its like my favorite antag and its sadly almost entirely used to rampage and thus seems like itll never be able to get added into the RP antag pool)

[colossusqw]

I might be parroting Waffle's points a bit here, but i do think the recent changes in how interactions between security/the crew and antags should interact seem to have played a part in why things are the way they are.

As of late, i've seen a lot of people either pushing antags at a very vast pace or just shutting them down altogether. Don't get me wrong, i don't enjoy "5 katana dudes TM playing MONO with the sec team", but as of late most of what i see are either completely silent antags that hide away most of the round in a way that while safe for them, doesn't get the round anywhere, or going VERY loud very fast, which leaves little in the way of roleplay. As said before, the third way a lot of antags seem to act is by only revealing themselves to those they already meta know and trust to not instantly shut them down, which isn't good for obvious reasons, while it tends to create good quality RP between the meta group, it leaves everyone else out..

For me, the reason we see even more both friendly antags who end up doing nothing all round and antags that either don't RP or selectively RP with their friend group has a lot to do with folks not feeling like they can really place their trust in the sec teams or even in the general crew to work together in creating fun roleplay scenarios. Antags are the driving force of many rounds, and it's very bad that they are currently mostly being confined to meta groups, which leaves most of the players out of their interaction. Stealthy antags and all out antags are both fine and fun, but going out of your way to only interact with your meta friends out of fear of being instantly shut down or jumping over all the RP because you can't risk it is definitely detrimental to the round, and i think the way people are currently feel expected to act fosters these behaviors.

[Lord_earthfire]

As of late, i've seen a lot of people either pushing antags at a very vast pace or just shutting them down altogether. Don't get me wrong, i don't enjoy "5 katana dudes TM playing MONO with the sec team", but as of late most of what i see are either completely silent antags that hide away most of the round in a way that while safe for them, doesn't get the round anywhere, or going VERY loud very fast, which leaves little in the way of roleplay.

This is a behaviour you have mostly due to gameplay balance. Sec stuns are blatantly overpowered, forcing antags into a very silent gameplay or go " all out, guns blazing". You cannot really escalate violence when sec is gonna shut you down with 2-4 baton hits. You can hope that you have very lenient sec, but then you are solely relying on chance.

And i can recall a round where i prepared to escalate violence and sec proceeded at the first opportunity where i fucked around with a super hairgrowium rafflesia to stun me and strip me of 6TC and 30 minutes worth of preparation. To be honest, i did some beginner mistakes, like not having a freedom implant and no sunglasses, but damn, that was an experience where i began to play much more cautios for later traitor rounds.

But this will probably derail the discussion. It was more one explanation on how this situation comes to existance.

[Kotlol]

As of late, i've seen a lot of people either pushing antags at a very vast pace or just shutting them down altogether. Don't get me wrong, i don't enjoy "5 katana dudes TM playing MONO with the sec team", but as of late most of what i see are either completely silent antags that hide away most of the round in a way that while safe for them, doesn't get the round anywhere, or going VERY loud very fast, which leaves little in the way of roleplay.

This is a behaviour you have mostly due to gameplay balance. Sec stuns are blatantly overpowered, forcing antags into a very silent gameplay or go " all out, guns blazing". You cannot really escalate violence when sec is gonna shut you down with 2-4 baton hits. You can hope that you have very lenient sec, but then you are solely relying on chance.

And i can recall a round where i prepared to escalate violence and sec proceeded at the first opportunity where i fucked around with a super hairgrowium rafflesia to stun me and strip me of 6TC and 30 minutes worth of preparation. To be honest, i did some beginner mistakes, like not having a freedom implant and no sunglasses, but damn, that was an experience where i began to play much more cautios for later traitor rounds.

But this will probably derail the discussion. It was more one explanation on how this situation comes to existance.

How is HAIRGROWNIUM enough to get arrested for?! If I was security I would be like: "Hey don't put that in public, it will cause problems"
Give you a verbal warning and send you on your way.
Unless I have evidence of you using contraband, then I might give you a ticket, if I see it again then I will confiscate the contraband (only one since I dont know all of it)

Seriously, security should ONLY move in to arrest... if you are committing a crime or about to commit a huge crime like:
- Blowing up the station.
- Attacking other crewmen. (be it shoving, grabbing, punching)
- Drugging crewmen.
- Causing Damage to the station (Like breaking windows)
- Breaking and entering restricted sections ("I broke into the captain's office")
- Sabotage
- Stealing items

What's not a reason (at 1st offense mostly):
- Having or using Contraband (as long as it doesn't break things above you)
- Being supicious. (we need evidence, thats when the Detective comes in)
- Doing something questionable (like your hair grownium)
- Verbally rude
- Questioning command
- Questioning Security
- Pranking Security (While it might get you arrested when the officer has an ego or you interrupted a chase)
- Making questionable drinks
- Making questionable food
- Being an antagonist obivious to everyone.

[Emrsnn]

And i can recall a round where i prepared to escalate violence and sec proceeded at the first opportunity where i fucked around with a super hairgrowium rafflesia to stun me and strip me of 6TC and 30 minutes worth of preparation. To be honest, i did some beginner mistakes, like not having a freedom implant and no sunglasses, but damn, that was an experience where i began to play much more cautios for later traitor rounds.

ime, This is definitely an outlier in what we normally see from sec on RP and should have been an ahelp.

[nefarious6th]

my take in general is everyone is saying it's a tit for tat of having to overestimate as either sec or a traitor and be unreliant on trusting the good faith of the other players. New antags are going to see the round as ripe for their antics. New sec are going to think they're doing the very model of keeping crew safe when they overextend. Trust that people are learning and growing. It's not an easy process, we have lots of new players coming in all the time, but sec isn't some coinflip "they're probably shit and trying to shut me down", and traitors arent some coinflip "they're probably shit and going to abuse niceties to GAIN antag points and then rampage". Ahelp what has to be ahelped, but culturally, I dont see either side as being More or Less Right about things.
If you're getting batonned in two hits without a word because you broke an APC and didnt put up a chase, That's a problem.

Otherwise, my thoughts from the past few years and watching how things ebb and flow:
- if I'm a geneticist and you're killing my coworker in front of me, I'm going to start a 2v1. If sec is struggling to keep me safe as a botanist or whatever, I can and will step in.
- I think people seeking out being part of an antag plotline is Meh but ultimately not really An Issue to me in that they're risking that they could be killed at any time/thralled/taken out of the round, and that's their risk vs their reward
- people defending violent antags and self antags is soannoying, please just Ask kindly if you have concerns over why someone is being arrested, dont run down the hall screaming at people, and spend the time visiting them if you're so worried. Most maps have visitation centers. Put a phone call in to your friend.
- Even if It Sux, getting your ass batonned by sec, getting arrested, and/or getting your contraband confiscated isnt the end of your run. It's a challenge. Rise to meet it.
- sec reaction to antags is. Reactionary. You wait to see the move from someone and respond. It shouldn't be super surprising to people that if you make a move, sec...responds...
- super Preventative sec play though should be ahelped. Random searches or escalating to search when there's no reason to think someone reasonably has contraband ("hey, you vandalized the kitchen and I'm ticketing you and also now searching you because you will continue to cause problems, I know it!")
And yeah, because sec is reactionary, they dont always take the lead on telegraphing how Fun and Cool and Trustworthy they are. This is hard for newer players espc., but try to have a little faith that the team on the whole has some balance and even if there are a few people who are trying too hard, there'll be another teammate, cap, or hop to help reign them in. If you find yourself in trouble IC, ask for the HoP. Seriously. Consider it an HR matter.
Discounting entire teams of 7-11 players on sec feels super grody though. The chance that every single person on that team behaves as some sort of Maximum Punishment Preventative sort is not high. The belief of such also isnt healthy for the gameplay.

At the end of it all, there's no unanimity to be found on the topic of how and when to antag. It's good to share thoughts but I wouldn't expect anything cohesive out of this because No One Agrees, and at the very least I think that is something we could agree on

[colossusqw]

my take in general is everyone is saying it's a tit for tat of having to overestimate as either sec or a traitor and be unreliant on trusting the good faith of the other players. New antags are going to see the round as ripe for their antics. New sec are going to think they're doing the very model of keeping crew safe when they overextend. Trust that people are learning and growing. It's not an easy process, we have lots of new players coming in all the time, but sec isn't some coinflip "they're probably shit and trying to shut me down", and traitors arent some coinflip "they're probably shit and going to abuse niceties to GAIN antag points and then rampage". Ahelp what has to be ahelped, but culturally, I dont see either side as being More or Less Right about things.
If you're getting batonned in two hits without a word because you broke an APC and didnt put up a chase, That's a problem.

At least for me, i feel the need to say when i and others pointed out people feel reluctant to trust sec/the crew/antags as of late, we(or at least me personally) aren't talking about defensive action we take on it, rather that the overal climate as of late seems to be causing that on a lot of players. Validhunting is bad, being selective with who you interact is bad, they feed into eachother.
There is a growing lack of trust between antags and security/the crew, and that doesn't seem like something that will go away easily at the moment. Expecially when you join a round and you wanna see something going on, it can be very sad to feel like it's extended because the antag is too scared they'll instantly get shut down to do something cool..

[Waffleloffle]

New antags are going to see the round as ripe for their antics. New sec are going to think they're doing the very model of keeping crew safe when they overextend.

[edit on 10/08/2022: I was informed that I was mistaking the opinions expressed by admins on sec play on the rp channel as reflections of official policy, rather than recognizing them as opinion. I apologize. I stand by my stance that greater assumptions of good faith out-of-character are necessary for a healthy antag/sec environment on the rp servers]

[nefarious6th]

In the case of bonecracking, I think that gets into a discussion about what we believe characters can and cant know in-universe. That's somethi g that's been spun round on for years with no solid answer. I dont think it's particularly a contemporary RP issue. I believe sec as of current looks a lot like sec in 2020 did. To me, it doesnt feel like a new charge to escalate and overescalate, it's part of how stuff ebbs and flows in this community.

I guess to clarify: sec currently is what I would politely call aggressive (and, what a lot of people feel is hyperaggressive). Sec 2 years ago was aggressive, we'd arrest on suspicion, execute nonhumans generally and liberally, and went about things with a lot less "decorum", which is really a newer sort of style since dec 2020 and onwards. All with team or captain or hos guidance. It was sort of just the way of things, so my personal experience and perspective advises me that the escalation level being encouraged isnt something off-beat, but more like something cyclical. and rightly so, antags would rampage and it was pretty often we'd get changelings with 20+ kills that sec couldnt stop. I cant claim it's more or less fun to play that way, but it's not out of left field imo.