Nerfing SR: a Discussion

[Waffleloffle]

so in the roleplay chat channel on the discord a lot of people were discussing SR, which happens from time to time. some regulars were dissatisfied with how often SR sees use on the RP servers specifically to revive puritans, to the point it's considered a staple of medbay by some. this is due to it being both very powerful mechanically and also really easy to produce. at a point a dev came in and agreed that, with the frequency of this phenomenon, it probably means SR needs a nerf

the dev's proposed nerf was just to make it not work with puritans (and maybe to shake up the production ratio a little) and, while I personally think this serves as a fine way to dissuade people from making sr to bypass the main downside of the puritan trait, I do think it removes some niche scenarios where it could be used dramatically. personally, if its production was nerfed, rather than its effects - if it had a very arduous or convoluted way of making it, for example, or there was some way to keep you from having much of it on-hand at any given time

what do you guys think? what sort of changes to SR would you like to see, and what sort of consequences do you think they'd have?

[Largeamountsofscreaming]

I would say increase the amount of SR needed in the body to allow for a revive. By how much, not too sure (10-20?). This would possibly get nullified if botany is on a roll, just making enough omnizine to counteract it

I can't agree with it not working on puritans, that sort of defeats the purpose of SR, because either you just clone them if you can or borg them if you can't. Then again, it could be useful if you have a backlog of bodies, not enough biomass or time for all of them. This comes from the viewpoint of a Puritan dingus who doesn't die too often on RP so, I might not be one to talk about the logistics of Puritan as a mechanic, but I don't see it as a "You only get one life" trait. I see it as a thing you have to worry about every shift and another thing to keep in mind, same thing for allergies, human torch, etc.

[Retrino]

i dont think saying its purpose is for puritan revival is accurate. puritans are meant to be very difficult to revive (if at all) and having this trait function be ignored by funnee revive chem kind of takes the punch out of it

should be noted sr already received a nerf to its requirement from hundredths of a unit to at least one unit, which didnt do much do deter the active use of it as its incredibly trivial to get. you can make some within the first five minutes of the round and have it last you the entire shift, and with omnizine not difficult to acquire either it can be basically mass produced

honestly i wouldnt be opposed to having it similar to rd’s cake, coming as a single item/bottle for the md to make conscious decisions on when to use it rather than having stacks of revive pills at the ready in every doc’s pocket

[Lord_earthfire]

1. Cloning is far too powerful that i think SR needs to be touched. The chem is generally underutilized and only used on critters or puritans.

2. SR is gated behind omnizine. That means mostly warm donk pockets/blood filtration or lifeweed. In comparison to most medical chems that makes it fairly hard to produce (most medical chems are chemgroups and welding fuel).

3. Puritans are not that common. You never see them on classic (because noone checks medical records) and on RP they are still fairly uncommon.

The thing is on RP medbay is generally far better prepared or stocked up. Botany often delivers lifeweed and medical chems, someone is always working in pharmacy. Heck, even science is doing its job and fulfilling chem requests. I never see pent acid on classic, but on RP very frequently. In RP, you can always count that medbay got all you need to get you back on your toes. And that simply involves SR specifically for puritans .

Overall, i don't think SR needs a nerf in any way. SR only practical use currently is reviving puritans and critters and the second one is pure gimmick territory. It requires more work to revive than cloning (need to heal the corpse) and is gated by an opportunity cost (omnizine).

We are looking at a very niche interaction that i don't really consider to be strong. People who claim that puritans are +2 points for free generally neglect how much the players onbthe RP servers have optimized their jobs to make it run so smooth. They should go on classic with puritan to get a different perspective.

The threshold can be increased to nerf food item related production, but even then i don't see much reason for as long as cloning exist the way it is.

[mab]

if you take the puritan trait, you should be aware that it will be very hard, if not impossible, to revive you. and you should expect not to be revived, after all you chose the trait.
i think puritans should not be revived with SR, or revived in general. so i would like to have this change. having something similiar to RD's cake could be good too, like Retrino said, a very limited source of SR in MD's locker maybe? but personally id prefer an explosion like the one that happens when you clone a puritan, and being able to make SR to revive critters and create monsters/abominations.

SR is not hard to produce at all right now, since there is a bottle of omnizine in the MD locker and with that you can make enough to revive at least... 30 people? or more. you only need 1 unit for one person. also a lot of rp players are very fast at making white weed in botany. so this has become a normal thing, to have SR bottles ready five minutes after the round has started. also i think puritans are more common that you think, on rp. a lot of people take the trait for lore/narrative reasons.

personally, id like it if SR was more complicated to make and not a common, easy chemical. after all, it is a chemical that resurrects people. id love to roleplay as if it were a mysterious, obscure, experimental chemical, or something like this.

[Lord_earthfire]

>SR is not hard to produce at all right now, since there is a bottle of omnizine in the MD locker

Ok, i didn't know that is even a thing and i firmly believe it should not even be a thing at all.

This is the problem then. Why gate a powerfull chem behind an exclusive chem when you give out that chem at round start?

And by the way, omnizine is only done fairly quick when you got a botanist that knows what they are doing. And there are only a handfull that do it every round they roll botanist.

[Kotlol]

It's called STRANGE REAGANT.

The nerf should be simple. At random side effects to it that are not benefical or have a chance of being changed into a meat cube.

Or yea as Lord_earthfire says: GATE OMNIZINE COMPLETELY.

Eitherway... I think it's more fun to make SR.. strange. Sure it will revive people.. but at WHAT COST?!
Now if Puritans die they can still get SR'd but... they get downsides to their revival since they are PURITANS and maybe even become a disgusting pile of goo that is barely alive!

[Stonepillar]

Make reviving puritans involve something with the Chaplain, that way their morgue would actually get used. More chaplain magics please.
If you pick the trait, you get what you picked. Better be hard to bring you back.

t. Puritan player 

[Lord_earthfire]

>The nerf should be simple. At random side effects to it that are not benefical or have a chance of being changed into a meat cube.

I really like that drawback.

Why not give them a disease that turns them over time to meat cubes and can go back in stages (without cure) with more SR?

Make puritans permanently depending on SR to keep them going or they will suffer the fate of dissolving into a pile of goo, since their DNA is too unstable.

And instead of gibbing, make SR turn rotten or too damaged corpses directly into mob meatcubes (so people cannot be janked out of ghost timer by SR).

This will resolve the issue of requiring low amounts of omnizine being enough to revive people. And give a very nefarious way to antags to create terror. Think about it: kill a puritan, Inject SR you made out of donk-pocket Omni, and watch them suffer. Or turn the morgue into a meat cube horror house.

[nefarious6th]

I'd honestly just remove SR and instead just keep the damage threshold +defib interaction plus add surgery for pre-rot revivals, toxins then being a difficult case.

Not possible for Reasons and beyond the scope of a re-balance as suggested

[Kotlol]

>The nerf should be simple. At random side effects to it that are not benefical or have a chance of being changed into a meat cube.

I really like that drawback.

Why not give them a disease that turns them over time to meat cubes and can go back in stages (without cure) with more SR?

Make puritans permanently depending on SR to keep them going or they will suffer the fate of dissolving into a pile of goo, since their DNA is too unstable.

And instead of gibbing, make SR turn rotten or too damaged corpses directly into mob meatcubes (so people cannot be janked out of ghost timer by SR).

This will resolve the issue of requiring low amounts of omnizine being enough to revive people. And give a very nefarious way to antags to create terror. Think about it: kill a puritan, Inject SR you made out of donk-pocket Omni, and watch them suffer. Or turn the morgue into a meat cube horror house.

Now you are thinking with side effects!
Suddenly we put "Clone rot" on SRing in the form of meat cubing.
Remember that repeated cloning causes "Clone rot" (That and interrupting cloning)

I 100% agree with you taking this part of my idea and expanding it like that.
After all... you are "playing god" with chemicals wich are "Strange"
And it feels 100% goon to have more meatcubes.. we don't seem em enough!

[Cal]

Puritans are meant to be very difficult to revive (if at all) and having this trait function be ignored by funnee revive chem kind of takes the punch out of it

This is my issue.

I have seen doctors on RP rush donk pockets and make a giant tub of Strange Reagent 3 minutes in. At this point it's standard Medbay equipment.

If you want to stay alive, don't take puritan. It's meant to be a "one life" deal except for being borged.

[Ikea]

Im against making it harder to make SR for classic, however Im of the take that doctors shouldnt be able to tell who is puritan that way being revived isnt something puritans can really expect to happen to them, should help a lot with the toxicity and trait being worthless issue.

[jan.antilles]

Im against making it harder to make SR for classic, however Im of the take that doctors shouldnt be able to tell who is puritan that way being revived isnt something puritans can really expect to happen to them, should help a lot with the toxicity and trait being worthless issue.

This wouldn't work on RP. It would turn into even more of a metagaming thing, knowing in advance who is Puritan and who isn't.

[Ikea]

Im against making it harder to make SR for classic, however Im of the take that doctors shouldnt be able to tell who is puritan that way being revived isnt something puritans can really expect to happen to them, should help a lot with the toxicity and trait being worthless issue.

This wouldn't work on RP. It would turn into even more of a metagaming thing, knowing in advance who is Puritan and who isn't.

I dont think itd be the end all be all but I do think itd definitely help. I feel like this would be an issue that fixes itself because most players wont have whose puritan is memorized thus even if some people metagame to fix others, it would still make it to where puritans get accidentally cloned a bunch more, and would fix the issue of puritans expecting to be cloned because how could you expect someone to not clone you when they cant ever tell that youre not a puritan.