Brainstorming Reducing Silicon Slavery [Warning: Potentially Upsetting Topic!]

[Technature]

I'm sorry, I just...

Look man, this is all a little heavy for what amounts to a farty space men game where some of the people are given special permission to be massive assholes to their other fellow space man and the station at large.

Robots have always been the "Thing that humans made to help better their lives and oh lawdie lawd I sure hope they don't decide to violate the laws about not murdering me", and cyborgs are like...that simple. I don't know like, who's deciding they want to let out their inner racist and deciding that cyborgs are the TG lizards or whatever the fuck they're doing...like, Cyborgs have a number of benefits for playing as them and a number of drawbacks, and one of those drawbacks generally includes "Humans may tell you to do things and you generally can't say no unless it would put someone in danger or you believe it would put someone in danger". And you would be surprised how much you can still say no to. Like, is the staff assistant asking to be let into the janitor's closet? Well you can let them in, but they're usually not allowed in there, and maybe they're plotting some minor mischief that could hurt someone, you don't know. Like really, you're only limited by your imagination. And that's not even going into if you've seen said person actively harm someone. And fuck, if you're just in a bad mood you can just quit the game as a cyborg.

I've been around for a while and this is literally the first time I've seen Cyborgs legitimately compared to slavery. If playing Cyborg genuinely makes you uncomfortable to the point that it reminds you of slavery, then don't play as a cyborg and don't play the game if someone forces you to be one. If you think you're going to be turned into one, you can set yourself to DNR. Hell, you can suicide if you want to. And if someone is actually pulling this slavery bullshit, Adminhelp them and move on.

This just seems really bizarre to me and I genuinely have no idea how you came to these conclusions.

[cyberTripping]

I think the biggest reason i see this entire thread as absurd is that it kinda misses the point of the entire setting of the game. You seem very focused on special little words like "consenting to work" and "receiving pay", but regardless of if borgs did those things, it would not meaningfully change their relationship with NT as an entity. Borgs and humans are, to me, on the exact same level: stuck working for NanoTrasen on account of the implication.

Nanotrasen is an exceptionally cruel, unethical megacorporation. In the original canon, before Goon's deep deep lore got more intricate and separated from the original game, NT fumbled the ball and wiped out half the population of Asia or something like that, and kept going. That is the kind of company that you work for in ss13. They literally pull souls back from the afterlife to continue shuffling forwards in work.

You even nearly hit this nail right on the head in your original post: you posit an option of an accept/refuse dialogue where the brain is grindered if you say no. While it would be a bit of a noob trap in practice, the idea fits NT perfectly, and also doesn't actually affect anything at all, because it just brings borgs back to the state that work at NT is already: You work, or you die. They literally sell humans the air that they breathe at the O2 vendors, which not all of their employees (clown and mime) can afford! But nobody ever talks about clown slavery because that's patently fucking ridiculous. NanoTrasen is cruel, that's the intent.


I had a bit here about the conditions of labor under capitalism but it was getting too political so I axed it. I guess my conclusion is: Borgs are fine and not slavery in the same way that humans are fine and not slavery. The inhumane treatment is inherent to all of NT's subjects.

[Love]

This just seems really bizarre to me and I genuinely have no idea how you came to these conclusions.

I've tried to make it clear in other replies that I'm not uncomfortable with it, that I have no trauma in this, and that I do not believe it is a thing that is actually intended or present. I love playing my (unopressed, unenshackled) borg. But it's a lot of text to go through.

Myself, and others in this thread, have run into the theme over and over and over. There are threads on this very forum with examples.
Since there has been a push to distance themes of slavery in game in other places, I was hoping this was a good time to bring it up, and hope it would be put to bed by reducing some of the root mechanical causes or lack of clear negations that makes it such an oft-repeated theme.

Clearly, I was incredibly wrong. Or clearly I put things incredibly badly.

I was trying to reduce people's potential discomfort with an icky and ugly theme. Which I thought we were all for.

I was also wrong to do that.

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I think the biggest reason i see this entire thread as absurd is that it kinda misses the point of the entire setting of the game.

[...] NanoTrasen is cruel, that's the intent.


[...] The inhumane treatment is inherent to all of NT's subjects.

I am not against NT being mustache-twirling evil. It's one of my favorite themes. I'd have been totally fine with the older, eviller NT too. I think it's good fun.

But let me remove the emotionally charged language to hopefully be clearer. We aren't talking about slavery (or other objectionable things we disallow and distance ourselves from) now, we're going to talk about geese, in our game about ponds.

We are starting to remove mention of geese in our farty pondgame. Some goose mentions have been removed. Talking about geese will make an admin frown at you. This is fine, and uncontroversial. Everyone hates geese. Geese make people feel bad. Nobody will complain if they're gone.

Then we have something that in our pond that is, for all appearances, a goose. It looks like a goose, it sounds like a goose, it was probably originally a parody of a goose, or was meant to bring geese to mind to make a point about the pond. We obviously do not want it to be a goose, and really haven't for a while. We want it to be a duck, since ducks are almost the same, but are cool and don't bite. But talk about it being a goose persists, because its qualities would suggest that, well, it's very gooselike.

I am just suggesting we maybe make minor changes to the goose sprite to make it look more ducklike. Maybe change its description to make it clear it's a duck. So people will no longer make assumptions of goositude, or make gimmicks or RP or pondlaws about it, and so it doesn't inform design decisions in the future.

I made this thread hoping we could figure out a noninvasive way to resprite the goose to a duck, because we all enjoy having a flying, swimming bird, but don't want geese.

[Love]

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This is going to be my last post in this this thread, I think.
Feel free to reply to me, to get the last word. I'll probably read it in sheer self-destructive impulse, to punish myself. But I won't reply.

The above silly goose explanation is probably as good as my point is ever going to get. And it sings to my Canadian dissatisfaction with the Canada Goose.

I made this thread entirely in good faith. In what I thought was basically to front the ethics of Goon as I've always been proud to be part of. That of creating an open and inclusive space for people, where we don't allow the worst bile of humanity to fester, like a lot of our sister servers do. I was legitimately trying to help in what I thought was the way we've always done things. I still don't think I was wrong in that, even if I clearly made a horrible misstep somewhere along the way.

Jan mentioned in Discord that we're trying to avoid allowing any mentions of slavery. There has been the recent mindslave to mindhack change. So I thought I would try to see if we could think up ways to address the most common source of slavery mentions and themes. Changes have often been made to remove or modify objectionable old content and implications to better fit current thought. You can read through archived changelogs and find many such changes. I made an admin ticket specifically to ask if it was allowable to me to make this exact thread, and was told that I was okay to do so. So it was... more than a little surprising to see that the first two replies to the thread were two extremely angry admins, making me sound like someone I'm not, or want something I do not.

After that, this thread could only go one way, because we always support our admins against the baddies, and pile in to say so. I had that instinct too, always. One of the reasons we aren't allowed to see Ban Appeals anymore, I guess.
(Edit: Sigh. And no, I don't mean magical admin mind control. Just that it biases a conversation heavily when beloved authority figures weigh strongly in and frame someone negatively.)

I'm going to take my leave from Goon for a while, I think.
I admit, I'm more than a little disillusioned with a place I was always so proud to be part of. And more than a little bit hurt. Thank you to the people that spoke up for my character.

[cyberTripping]

I wanted to avoid getting into this, which is why I deleted that last bit from my previous message, but I see that I need to elaborate.

You are concerned with the aesthetics of 'slavery', which you have largely divorced from the crueller aspects of actual historical slavery, while talking about the realities of labor under capital. Practically any argument discussing borgs as slaves could be turned on real life workers under capitalism. Even something as silly as silicon laws has its roots in material reality: If your boss, your superior, asks you to do something, you technically do have the free will as a human to refuse, but you wouldn't, because not doing it means no money and no money means freezing to death or starving. NanoTrasen is the stereotypical capitalist megacorp, and as such, being a borg resembles slavery because being a worker under capitalism resembles slavery. Look at Amazon warehouses, look at the plantations in central america that supply your local fast food joint's produce. This is just how capitalism operates. The setting of ss13 is also capitalist, as is many, many more settings based on the real world. Avoiding things "resembling slavery" in the superficial ways you've presented means entirely changing the entire game's setting, from the ground up.

Death is uncomfortable. Violent murders, especially, are uncomfortable. These are part of the game, and people understand that, and dont see the farty spaceman choking in a pool of blood like they would see a dying person. The reality of capitalism is uncomfortable. This is a part of the game's setting, and people understand that, and people have fun playing this game and doing whatever tasks even though they hate their actual job.

I'm trying to be polite with this part: If someone was squicked out by violence, the solution there is for them to just not play violent video games. Likewise, if someone is particularly distressed by the themes of dystopian capitalism presented in lots of sci-fi settings like SS13, they probably just shouldn't engage with that kinda dystopian capitalist sci-fi.

Edit: I wrote this post before seeing your second post. I just wanted to say I really do not appreciate the implication that criticisms arrived from the admins dictating everyone's thoughts. If everyone here triumphantly agreed with you, I might not have posted because it would mean rocking the boat, but I sure as hell would still think the things that I said here, admins be damned.

[Kotlol]

Love my post wasn't ment to be malice or angry or upset.
It just felt out of context.

Now that the topic has evolved and we see more points from both sides.

We understand you respectfully want to change this, but there are just some things that were confusing like:
"Give them a wage" And I am like.. borgs/AI's always get the same wage. Human charaters get variable wages.

But to me it feels like you went down a rabbit hole of thinking... and I can see why.
Borgs can't have the tools they want.
Borgs can't express art.
Borgs can't wear all clothes.

But at the same time...
Borgs have all access.
Borgs are immune to alot of afflictions.
Borgs technically have 3 arms.

I tend to look more from the gaming standpoint.
If you would give the borg a wage that comes in from time to time.. fine. But what do they do with it? What will they spend money on?
Then we get to the point where we start asking things from a gameplay point why the borg/AI can't have it.

I believe the borg needing humans to do certain things balances out the fact that borgs cannot run stations alone. If they could... why hire humans?
From both lore and gameplay it makes sense.

Now to move on to your other issues.. "The goose talk"

Or as I call em BAD EGGS.
There will always be bad eggs in the game and while staff tries to prevent bad egg acts before they are possible, they also detract from other things. The fun of THE GAME. If someone uses the word SLAVE.. fine admins shown they don't want it and you are allowed to send someone to slap them.

Borgs being called tools is... not a good replacement in terms either. Cause a tool is ment to be used by a human. This term makes them feel below humans....
In my opinion Borgs are players who get certain advantages and certain disadvantages. They are part of the station wich is at the hands of human interaction.
Borgs are by that definition "Not human" but so are the non sentient monkeys.
The difference is BORGS HAVE RIGHTS. They might be "Non human" but we also have aliens and such.
Killing borgs comes with just as much judgement as killing a human.

Now is there a power balance in humans and silicon life? Maybe? I don't know that.. even playing for 2 years now.
If there is gameplay wise , that is a fair change to ask.

Now the last point....
And this is where I get Harsher....

I do not think your view is very realistic to what you think is going on. This world is a parody / fantasy of a possible future under a mega corperation fighting space wizards, mutants, aliens, unholy threats and crime lords.
If you look at another universe for example Warhammer 40k... thats where these terms will come up (and we got references to that universe too)
So why is it allowed there? Cause it's a world WE DONT WANT TO LIVE IN. Everyone's life is terrible in some way in that universe no matter the faction.
The nicest faction in that world... will not kill you, but sees you as an asset not a person.

So while the world of SS13 is bad, you have to accept that NT litterly will do anything to curb workers rebelling and using what they can to turn a profit.
Thus BORGING is a setence for people who sabotage the station so they can still be of USE to the station.
Heck one of the jobs that can show up are UNION REPRESENTATIVES for certain departments.. and guess what.. one of them is the CYBORG UNION REPRESENTATIVE.
(Or atleast i seen one.. could been a changed title)

Overal you need to think on what this game world represents and what changes can be allowed. I am not saying what you are asking is unreasonable, but it doesn't make sense since there are contradictions in your idea.
If you see people being bad eggs you report them.
If you think borgs get no wage? They do at the end of the round.

Heck I am probably one of the captain players who appriciates silicons more then humans and mostly give them fun laws so they feel appriciated (Such as my Employee of the month law). The biggest problem is the fact is.. is your borg a person or do they follow their code to the letter.

Ooh right you can also flat out refuse requests like opening doors unless the safety of the station or safety of a person depends on it.
You can refuse orders despite what any law is saying, since they are more "suggestions" then actual laws, just don't break them to do harm.

So next time a staff assistant is hassling you to open a door, just say they don't have access.
If they are ordering you for a drink.... tell them intoxication is harm and you cannot allow it.
Remember that.

Anyhow I think I said enough. LOVE it's a shame you feel that way and I am sorry it is so. This server thrives off mutual respect after all and no one sees you as the bad guy here. Just some people are afraid of trolling and grieving too, so some admins are just harsher due to it as they have to see abuse almost every day and deal with it proffesionaly without being unreasonable and harming the image of the game.
If you feel like returning we are here for you. You are a good AI/Borg player and I will happily always give you the employee of the month award law

[zjdtmkhzt]

Honestly, I don't understand why some people are comparing borgs to things like factory arms or PCs, borgs and AIs are obviously sapient, unlike the aforementioned machines. They are as intelligent as humans and everything, they are just silicon and metal based instead of carbon and whatever.

And yeah, technically it does feel to me like their state on the station is kind of that of slaves, though it should be mentioned that they receive a pretty low amount of orders or duties, so they can mostly just vibe instead of doing an actual job, like humans can.

I wouldn't really have a problem with giving silicons a wage or something, I suppose employees on the station get a wage and also usually free food from the kitchen, meanwhile borgs get no wage and free power from the engine, so it's a bit lopsided at the moment. It's a bit of a weird conversation overall, because the actual gameplay does not force any of us, human or silicon, to do our actual jobs or anything.

Thinking a bit further, even if silicons were to receive a wage, wouldn't it still be unethical to basically mindcontrol them via giving them laws they can't violate?

But that's just the nature of the station we work on in our lore, is it inherently bad for us to portray unethical behavior in our game?
It's not so different from the change to the name of the mindhack implant. I mean, implanting someone to control their thoughts is an objectively horrible thing to do, so it made sense to me it had a pretty horrible name. So I guess the difference is just that terrible things are fine as long as they don't draw parallels to actual historical terrible things that happened (and I suppose are still happening today)?

I don't really have a strong opinion on the changes proposed one way or the other, I just wanted to weigh in that I don't find the concept of giving borgs a wage or something as crazy as some people here do. In a lot of traditional sci-fi they don't, but in lots of other sci-fi media they probably do, especially if a lot of them are run by human brains in some roundabout way?

[Sord213]

This thread is going nowhere fast. The important points have been stated.

[Flourish]

Just wanted to add that I don't think you made this thread in bad faith or anything, and I'm sorry that you feel disillusioned and hurt. I understand being more sensitive to people's responses, given your investment in and position on this topic, but I really don't think anyone thinks you're, like, bad, or trolling, or whatever, even if they disagree with you, and re: "two extremely angry admins", I don't think Ley or Emily are angry at you or anything like that. This is just a complex topic.

[Frank_Stein]

For what it's worth, the word "Robot" is derived from a Czechoslovakia word for "Forced labor"

I think it's a core part of the capitalist dystopian fiction of something like this to explore the ethics of that, but that doesn't mean it can't be subverted. It's often the perseverance of human empathy in the face of cruel and indifferent systems that makes science-fiction compelling.