Let's talk Antags (Those we have and those we don't)

[Kotlol]

We all known Goonstation has many many Antagonists. But some... are lacking from RP and others are loved.
So while I can say "We need these antags now" and "These antagonists need to be removed from RP"
That's not what this topic is going to be about....

Remember all antags are "technically" available on RP if admins allow them. And i like the admin supervision. 

Anyhow... on to the topic at hand. Let's discuss some antags with the way to do this being simple.

Take one antag you can be on RP and an antag that's blocked from RP (Unless admeme).
Compare them... or don't. Talk on why the allowed antag is bad and the blocked one should be allowed.
Talk on why you love both of them.

I'll go 1st.

Allowed Antag: Sleeper Agents.
To me the worst antagonist in the game. Atleast hard mode traitors get the full shift to do their things.
But nothing upsets me more then when I go into RP. Enjoying my shift and then 5 mins before the shift ends... the game is like: "LOL SLEEPER AGENT NOW"
Like what can I do in that time?
My problem with sleepers is that depending if the antagonist dies during the shift and sleepers are needed... that alot of the time... these sleepers are doing a job and suddenly "Welp you are an antag with limited time"
Alot of the time you gotta make do with what you have but when the timer is with 15 mins to go. I mostly give up on doing anything crazy....

Banned Antag: Werewolf.
Love these lil wuffers. I remember a shift where we used mutini's to isolate werewolf mutations... and then... put em in the rage cage! (Was a rage cage shift).
Shamefully these days it's not as easy to get anymore with some mutini changes.
But I would love to see these guys more often in RP...
See what it's like when they are actual antagonists in RP and what people will do with them.


(And that's the gist. Let's discuss for fun! Mention 1 antag that is on RP and one that can only be found on main (Or admeme only).)

[DioChasek]

Ok I‘ll bite.

Conspirators:

Do you like hard mode traitor? Do you like herding cats? Why not combine the two in an antag role guaranteed to make you headbutt through a glass wall in frustration when your other conspirators decide to not respond to their radio at round start, one cryos immediately, two decide to actually work together on your assigned plot, and the last player decides this is a great time to make a ttv and ruin 3 other antags rounds because haha bomb go boom.

It is the only antag role I have disabled because while I have had interesting conspirator rounds when all my team buys in to the idea, far too many have been utter trash because of the earlier examples.

Quite frankly the mode needs some love.onto the other category.

Wizard:

Yes they are unequivocally the most powerful antag in the game. High destructive capabilities, great defenses, and insane mobility. They also have some of the best gimmick potential as well.

Petting zoos, cluwne sanctuaries, vacation wizard, butt collector and bull charge bowling tournament all come to mind within seconds and that’s just the tip of the iceberg.

With a slight modification to the spells available the wizard could work as an antag on RP and I dare say in the right hands it would be more interesting than a wraith.

[nefarious6th]

> "Do you like hard mode traitor? Do you like herding cats?"

Say no more, im sold.

mmmmmmmmmmmmm I'll say I dont like ling as much just because the gameplay and narrative gets real stale after a while of playing; I find them kinda limited in what they can do gimmick-wise

for antag not on RP, I'd put my 2cents in for wizard too. I get most of my Quality Classic Server RP on wizard rounds at random. Some of the abils are admittedly not great for RP, but the concept of wizards with all this Lore and they have their own little ship and they Hate NT and they have their own federation...it's one of the most thoughtful antags in that regard and the setup leaves a lot of room for how someone plays it. When we've run Guided, Admin Sanctioned wizards on RP, they've been pretty fun.

also they're just totally goofy.

[Lord_earthfire]

Allowed antag: Spy

While i know many people loath the aspect of random stuff going missing, the spy can really drive paranoia in a round. People doing shady stuff in a corner somewhere where they shouldn't be or randomly taking pictures of people can lead to quite interesting conversations where you akwardly try to weasel out of the situation (if the other person simply does not call sec on you). On the other hand, getting random stuff as a traitor you don't have perfect control creates the need to adapt to how to approach your antagging. It's quite a content-diverse playstyle i kinda like.

Banned Antag: Wizard

Honestly, i really like wizards as round driving demigods capable of tearing the station apart at their leasure. The thing i kinda dislike is their choice of spells. Most of them are either completely destructive or only useable for escape. I really would like them to have more gimmick spells and their spell cost rebalanced to make them take less damage spells. With more flexible/gimmicky spells, they would be able to do engage in shenanigans in a station and be suitable for an RP.

A fireball isn't really RP-friendly. Except when you make a fireball shooting range and compete with the crew using seething tomatoes or grenades, then grats on that gimmick.

[ThatScarlett]

I wish there was a RP version of wizards/werewolves where they aren't as powerful as in classic, some good roleplay bits could come out of that.

Big issue? Ideias and work towards It.

Their stats and abilities would need to be revised and balanced, and then maybe create and code new abilities, maybe objectives, et cetera.

And well, once a PR on it is done, would need quite some time to MAYBE get merged (unless the dev team would be working towards it)
.

[Silent Majority]

Changelings

Due to the way escalation rules work, and changes to being able to feed off npcs, lings have an uphill battle that I had to tap out of. Their primary power is an instant invisible dose of fast acting knockout juice. They then eat someone and essentially hold them hostage. Due to the way we function, in rp, the ling is incentivezed to give only the most passing rp and in my long experience, usually just walks up to you and stings you and say's hi. I do not find them interesting or fun to be or go against, they're rp potential is too often squanderd by  press button to win button.

Gangs

I feel like gangs would be a better fit for rp then conspitrators. They have to rp recruitment, create bases, they are not very well armed and they are quiet noticable.  I would especially like them if they spawned with a traitor who's tasked with killing the gang leader. To much of rp antagonism comes down to a single antag being gang stomped by a half dozen people. Gangs have just enough firepower they could pose an interesting new layer of complexity to station life on RP that I feel would be fabulous. It could also allow sec to prep to do cool thingsthey don't get to do. Like raid or create profiles or interrogate to get names.

[Kotlol]

Changelings

Due to the way escalation rules work, and changes to being able to feed off npcs, lings have an uphill battle that I had to tap out of. Their primary power is an instant invisible dose of fast acting knockout juice. They then eat someone and essentially hold them hostage. Due to the way we function, in rp, the ling is incentivezed to give only the most passing rp and in my long experience, usually just walks up to you and stings you and say's hi. I do not find them interesting or fun to be or go against, they're rp potential is too often squanderd by  press button to win button.

As someone who sees potential in RPing a fun changeling. I 100% agree with this notion that for disallowing the Changeling to feed off NPCs limits their "non killing" RP, but still doing silly fun RP using most of their abillities.
Example: I like doing "Shitty Bill Epidemic" or "One of us epidemic" RP, so I absorb the NPCs in the diner to achieve enough points to do so.
Then I start infecting people at random so people get paranoid and before you know it... Shitty Bills are everywhere! TOTAL CHAOS!
(Or do a shitty bill cult where everyone becomes shitty bill)

Now don't get me wrong... changelings now have to kill and be more noticable wich is good, but... unlike vampires that can take abit of blood to get powers and let their victims live to give them an edge. Changelings have to knock out and kill people...

[Silent Majority]

I think most of us on rp are tired of the shitty bill epidemic....I've seen it soooo many times now

[DioChasek]

I think most of us on rp are tired of the shitty bill epidemic....I've seen it soooo many times now

Father Jack plague incoming in 5,4,3,2

[CalliopeSoups]

Well I had a longer post but it got wiped after my mouse glitched out and refreshed the page, mad about that one.

Allowed: Conspirators. Oh christ where do I even begin. First off, they CAN be fun, but in my 1000+ hours of playing as an RP main I've genuinely only seen one fun conspirator shift. Every other time it leaves security, crew and even the conspirators just... Confused, or upset. How many people do you see saying they love this antag? I believe they encourage interacting with a select few due to their mechanics, even if we have tasks assigned, barely any listen to them and I've seen many complain they're lackluster. A good conspiracy is a funny gimmick or otherwise plan that involves more than just security or your singular assassaination target, like one that I saw take over a section of maintenance as cave men in trash bags equipped with spears. A bad conspiracy leaves people wondering if it was extended, or on the flip side leaves me thinking that in all honesty, this antag is more suited to classic.

Disallowed: Werewolves. 100% all the way. They're safer than some antags on classic due to how people will just RP with you. They may be strong, but they come with actual counterplay. Silver cuffs and bullets provide security with ways to deal with a rampaging werewolf, along with the crew if things get that pressed. Compared to something like changeling that comes with a hit button to win and don't yell or it's meta mechanic, that's now encouraged to quickly RP with someone just enough to kill them with the NPC changes, I think a real fight with a werewolf would be a fresh experience. I'm all for an antag that is strong but at least lets you punch back, run and scream as you're being killed. There's rich RP opportunity with being a sneaky werewolf too, crewmates dropping off while you gear up as a human and reveal your true form before going in for a kill. I do think they're too loud noise wise though, primarily the howl.

Honorable mentions: I love wraith with all my heart and even if they can be chaotic, I think that's okay. Plus the rework PR comes bundles with more RP abilities and counterplay. Flockmind is an antag I would LOVE to see on RP with maybe a buff to their communication and a heigher nuke cost on RP.

[arcticmog]

With a slight modification to the spells available the wizard could work as an antag on RP and I dare say in the right hands it would be more interesting than a wraith.

Wizards would need a full rework to be viable on RP as their entire kit is built around rampages/mass murder. They would need a whole host of spells that work subtly, and there are other issues (namely, wizards are super bloody obvious, most rp antags are indistinguishable from a normal crew member until very carefully and closely inspected or they make use of their powers). Wizards are obvious the moment they arrive on station, sec can see the wizard gear is contraband etc, and for wizards to work in their Current form they need their contraband gear out. An RP wizard would need to be able to pass as a normal crew member with relative ease. There is far far more work here that would need to be done then just tweaking a few of their spells.

---

Ok I‘ll bite.

Conspirators:

Do you like hard mode traitor? Do you like herding cats? Why not combine the two in an antag role guaranteed to make you headbutt through a glass wall in frustration when your other conspirators decide to not respond to their radio at round start, one cryos immediately, two decide to actually work together on your assigned plot, and the last player decides this is a great time to make a ttv and ruin 3 other antags rounds because haha bomb go boom.

It is the only antag role I have disabled because while I have had interesting conspirator rounds when all my team buys in to the idea, far too many have been utter trash because of the earlier examples.

Quite frankly the mode needs some love.onto the other category.

Probably should have done this in one post but im limited on time and didnt realise this was the same post (brain fart). Regardless. 

Conspirators are currently not a very good antagonist in RP. Team antagonists only really work when there is an enforced objective (like a mind hacked antagonist serving their master or zombie serving their vampire, or on classic, teams like nuke ops). However devs have stated out flat that hard/obligatory objectives rather then soft optional objectives (with the vampire/mindhack exceptions) are something they currently reject. Conspirators don't really work because most antag players are solo operatives, who prefer to choose to work with people at their own leisure (and the chance to betray them, which conspirators are on paper not allowed to do). Rps philosophy heavily reflects this as well which does not help conspirators not fitting in. There is also the issue that conspirators may have just completely conflicting ideas/desires or modus operandi, based on both meta desires (planned gimmick) or in character motivations.  Theres no easy way to obviously resolve this and I can see issues with admins imposing a solution on conspirators on per round basis in game at present. 

This also ties into a criticism of how antagonist selection mechanics works. Goonstation has it setup that your chances of rolling antagonist are mostly even no matter how many antagonist roles you have selected. If you only have traitor selected you are not anymore likely to get traitor when the game decides to spawn one vs someone who has all antags selected. Consequently this encourages people to select as many antagonist options as possible to have the most chances to perform a gimmick they have had planned for a while or to just be the evil person for the round (as for some people this is their favourite thing to do). While people abusing this by adding conspirator to their option are breaking rules when they refuse to cooperate or even attempt to plan (this is ahelpable), currently the game incentivises this behaviour meaning it will never stop being an issue under present circumstances. I have mixed feelings on a better solution for this subject but I do honestly think people should be able to lean towards antagonists they want to play especially if they have a decently well made character concept reflecting the antagonist version of themselves.

[Meowgical]

yayay Time to be WRONG

Allowed antag: Changelings
I love changeling. I do. I love the Thing, I love their freak ability to look off their limbs and scuttle across the ship. They’re disgusting, disturbing, and perfect in every single way. Except for the fact that they’re impossible on rp half the time. You gotta escalate to eat people. Cool! You sting them with capulettium at some point, your would be dinner sees the screen turn white and there they go into medical screaming that you drugged them. Or if you’re the unlucky victim who played along congrats: your rp was “Im so hungry, Im sorry.” And… that’s about it. You’re a sad monster who has to eat people. Yay..?
I won’t lie! It’s neat the first time. It just gets old so fast. Something that could be so interesting and is all otherwise great! Flops because it’s rp is very limited honestly. Maybe if it took more inspiration from the thing it’d be different but what can you really do besides the múltiple lings thing.
TLDR:
“Im huuuuungry, Im so sooorry…” me too, friend. Me too.

Banned Antag: WIZARDS
Chaotic, very dumb, VERY funny. We sometimes get nukie gimmick rounds, and what I would GIVE for a wizard round. Longer destruction, more stress, more ICEE BRREEAHM, and of course their silly little hats. Long term in RP or regularly in RP? Would never happen. They’re TOO good and too destructive. They would annihilate Morty. This said a big dopey funny gimmick for a quick round, and by god am I a sucker for the interrupted serious rp round where we have your edgy dorks, your sad boy doctors, and goofy clowns suddenly have to deal with the force of four wizards. It would be the funniest round of all time.

[GrungoFlorbit]

Allowed: Changeling
 Changelings currently are just... in a really unfun state. They have so much potential for cool gimmicks. Arm weapons and DNA stings, shapeshifting, giving over control in the hivemind for better deception, the ling summons! all so cool! and then you notice the thing that chains them all back. DNA.
 All of the changelings abilities that have potential for fun RP moments basically require massive investments of DNA, which you can only get from killing another player. And before you have DNA? you essentially have two options, Sting and heal. you can shapeshift into an NPC, sure, but that really doesnt hold much RP potential besides the 34th "woah guys, Shitty bill is on station today?" bit of the week. Getting killed by a changeling is also just... not a feel good moment. The average RP changeling will say about 3 words to you, then sting you and drag you off into maint. and your options are call for medbay because your passing out for some unexplained reason or die. that isnt interesting. Lings dont have enough options, just at all. they are locked into a gameplay style that is just not good for Roleplay scenarios.

Not available on RP: Wiznerds
 Wizards, on the other hand, are one of the most customizable antags in the game. They build their ENTIRE kit on their own. They have so much potential to be incredible RP antags with just some new spells and some weakened versions for RP. And these "RP spells" dont need to be powerful. spells that do goofy effects like randomly color an area, or cause people in an area to lose their shoes. something not conventionally useful but just funny or usable in an RP scenario. even the current spells if just tuned back a bit could easily be a ton of fun on RP.

[ZodiaDecius]

Allowed: Conspirators. Oh christ where do I even begin. First off, they CAN be fun, but in my 1000+ hours of playing as an RP main I've genuinely only seen one fun conspirator shift. Every other time it leaves security, crew and even the conspirators just... Confused, or upset. How many people do you see saying they love this antag? I believe they encourage interacting with a select few due to their mechanics, even if we have tasks assigned, barely any listen to them and I've seen many complain they're lackluster.

The only people I have ever seen defend conspirator are admins.

---

Allowed: Changeling

Changeling is severely impacted by escalation than any other antagonist in my opinion. Lings have to telegraph so hard just to even try to get a kill, and most times I get killed by one it's because I LET them have the kill. Most of the time it's literally just a pity, "oh sure I'll follow you to maint." Or similar.
Great Antag, it just isn't made for RPs ruleset, and that's ok.

Disallowed: Nuclear Operative

I feel while Nukie is definitely more of a "killtag" I also feel like the RP opportunities that come whenever syndies are on the radio, are hilarious. I don't actually expect them to be in rotation but more admin sanctioned nukie rounds would be welcome by most