Cloning: A Discussion

[Nerkson]

I play mostly on RP, where things don't usually tend to be as chaotic as they are on Goon 1 and Goon 2. With that said, I have been keeping my ears open and listen to what other players say, and I hear a lot of discussion around cloning.

Cloning is, to put it mildly, extremely powerful.

The (somewhat obvious) benefit of cloning is being able to bring back anyone, at any range, from death itself (barring Puritans, DNR, Kudzupeople, Braindead, Rotted, and Changeling snacks, but there are solutions to almost all of these). 

Despite these benefits, most people simply opt to not even get cloned - the number of shifts I've had where even 1/2 of the crew was cloned is on the low side. Cloning even has a complete system to make cloning easier, by adding chemicals to the cloning pod that speed up cloning and let the clone walk out fully healed already.

My Ideal vision of cloning:

• A last ditch effort to bring back individuals, and not something done casually because a staff member is bored and keeps chugging the Bo-jack for fun.
    To put it bluntly, cloning enables people to be really risky with no real downsides.
  
• A procedure that works all the time, but has obvious downsides. Such downsides could be : easier chance of having organ failure, tacked-on traits like slip hazard or two left feet.
  

Let me know what you think.

[Cal]

In a game where life is cheap and death comes often, cloning is a wonderful and easy option. I disagree with making it a difficult thing.

If you want a self imposed challenge, take puritan.

[Retrino]

you see more on the classic servers how much more “meaningful” death is even in the presence of cloning, seeing as its much more common to have your body gibbed or spaced, very rarely seen on rp. that, and the respawns rp has

imo i wish death had more of a meaning to it, respawning and cloning being generally untouched on rp makes it feel pretty trivial, even with puritan traits (docs checking records nearly 24/7, constant presence of sr in med, monkey cloning, etc)

the biggest issue with that is leaving people out of the round, which *isnt* fun. but the topic of expanding postdeath gameplay has been talked to death, so

[Kotlol]

As call said take Puritan.
Cloning is suppose to be this way since if you take it from another game like "AMONGUS"
If you die there, no cloning and coming back, once your tasks are done... you are spectating only.

Unless you are an imposter then you get to do things.

Alot of these mystery games people die and they are out of the game....

Cloning is suppose to be a way for them to get back in and such since rounds on SS13 are a hour to a hour + so... if you get killed early off and no cloning.. it's not fun for you anymore. You would leave... Even with the fun after life options you have. Cause you want to interact with other players.

So making cloning harder is not fun for medics or players.
IEven if you want to nerf it.. we can increase bio matter costs so medbay has to use monkeys more sparringly and a body won't give 100% bodymass for a new body, but that's as far as a "NERF" I would go...

Otherwise rather not.

[Waffleloffle]

I see no issue with cloning as-is but I think it's like WAY too easy to bring puritans back in ways that aren't borging. never was a fan of SR stockpiling it just felt really cheap and powergamey and honest to god I will celebrate when monkeycloning gets removed

[Decarcassor]

I see no issue with cloning as-is but I think it's like WAY too easy to bring puritans back in ways that aren't borging. never was a fan of SR stockpiling it just felt really cheap and powergamey and honest to god I will celebrate when monkeycloning gets removed

Yeah monkey cloning feels like a weird unintended way to just work around the puritan drawback.

I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand I can understand peoples who don't like playing as borgs still wanting a way to come back to life even if they where left to rot. But on the other hand it nullify the point of the puritan traits wich is 2 extra traits point for playing in hardcore mode.

Maybe puritan brains should just go cold.

[Mr. Moriarty]

Yeah monkey cloning feels like a weird unintended way to just work around the puritan drawback.

I would be entirely in favour of puritan persisting through monkey cloning; they should still fall out of the cloner on the brink of death even if their brain was transplanted into a monkey. SR should also have a major downside when used with puritans, perhaps the same effects as when cloned, but more inventive solutions may be devised.

That being said, puritans can be saved if RNG is on your side. Currently, puritans exit the cloner with 0-100 brute damage, 250 toxin damage, roll a 50% chance per limb to lose it, and have the premature clone trait, meaning they gib on death. This gives them a 3.5% chance to die every life cycle (which I think is 1.75% per second, correct me if I am wrong), increasing with the damage associated with deep critical, however if one uses the correct chemical mix, it makes it possible, even if incredibly difficult, to save them.

Alongside changing puritan to persist across brain transplants, monkey cloning, or other cloner wizardry, I would also suggest making it slightly less impossible to try to save them, likely through use of a short grace period where they cannot roll the chance to die, challenging Doctors to actively try to save them, rather than the clone being unlucky and immediately gibbing, although it could be argued that is part of choosing the trait.

[Oremir]

There's enough ways to make sure someone doesn't come back from the dead granted they're not already scanned. So not in favour, like Cal said if you want a challenge pick Puri.

In regards to the Puri talk : The worst thing about it is, i wish they'd let me keep my mutantrace when i turn into a blood slushy. :')

[MetricDuck]

[snip]

Despite these benefits, most people simply opt to not even get cloned - the number of shifts I've had where even 1/2 of the crew was cloned is on the low side. 

[snip]

i think this is kinda interesting as it doesn't really stack up with the rest of the thread - if cloning is so convenient and powerful why do you think so many avoid it

my initial guess would be its because on slower rounds people get bored & many deaths are effectively self-round removal by the end?

i know i cba to get clone scanned unless i happen to pass through medbay (or its nukies), and im honestly not really sure why

[Kotlol]

How about SR not working on Athiests?

PURTIAN/ATHIEST combo! SR no longer works.

I am fine with monkey cloning for Puritans, but if people want another challange on it go ahead!

[virvatuli]

As a longtime puritan player, I don't think any form of revival outside of borging should work on puritans. You take puritan because you want hard-mode, and I've seen far too many people being disgustingly entitled about what happens to them after they die while using the trait. Your corpse is a corpse, and if someone decides that your puritan body isn't worth the effort of reviving, then you deal with it because you made the choice to take the trait.

This also allows those players who don't find death meaningful via cloning to play the game the way they want.

[Oremir]

As a longtime puritan player, I don't think any form of revival outside of borging should work on puritans. You take puritan because you want hard-mode, and I've seen far too many people being disgustingly entitled about what happens to them after they die while using the trait. Your corpse is a corpse, and if someone decides that your puritan body isn't worth the effort of reviving, then you deal with it because you made the choice to take the trait.

This also allows those players who don't find death meaningful via cloning to play the game the way they want.

I also have run Puri for a long part of my playtime, I absolutely 100% agree with the sentiment of "If you don't get revived as a Puritain, deal with it, you picked the trait."
Not so much with the limiting the revival mechanics in and of itsself, Med Doc (at least in RP) can be pretty one-dimensional as it is, Puri patients are a form of variety in different treatements.
Only thing i can say is that the current revival methods for Puri players are probably a bit too easy to come by, Docs fairly commonly stockpile SR.

[Nerkson]

Thank you all for the replies!

The discussion around puritans has been a joy to read as well. As acknowledged, perhaps Puritan is a bit too easy to get around. A knowledgeable medical team can easily bring back anyone from death.

I took the time yesterday to have one-on-one discussions with people who spend a lot of time in medical, and they definitely helped open my eyes a bit on some of the challenges and realities. Newer doctors and crew rely heavily on cloning - so much so that I was told a story about how on one particular shift, the crew was just beating the dying people to death so they could clone them quicker. I had not considered this in my original post, that cloning provides an easier way for newer doctors to engage in medical and still be beneficial.

I would not call myself a doctor main, but I consider myself knowledgeable enough that when someone gets brought in, I can tell if I can treat them or if I have to clone them. Part of me wants to have a challenging experience where I have to apply all I've learned to save their lives- and part of me knows that I can just wait fifteen seconds for them to succumb to their wounds and clone them. Many a time someone has come in with 4 organs failing and I want to do surgery, tactically toggling various chemicals, and letting them go about their day. With that said, I understand that more in depth surgery and medical is probably not aligned with Goon's overall idea philosophy and it's not a big issue at all for me.

Security officers have their Robust moments where they outwit a vampire and take them down through intimate knowledge of combat, tactics, and sheer luck at times. I think I just long for more opportunities to dive into medical more than "remove the pancreas from pancreatitis customers, Apply Mender to the Forehead, and press the cloning button". Those rare critical moments are few and far between, and I cherish them every time they happen.

[Kotlol]

You also have to think about this.

Cryopods can heal almost anything, put em in and you don't have to do anything unless they are dieing then you might have to do something.

But the easy option comes in for another reason... When all of staff starts getting injury after injury.
One thing medical's job is having cool life saving moments.
But also to keep everyone in the game.
There is no fun for anyone if they have to wait in medical to be treated for 5+ minutes every time.
Dieing players do not want to recover from a fatal injury if it would take 10 mins of surgery.

Ironicly... you can REVIVE players with SR too, but only if they died recently and you heal their body right away.
It's really hard to do.. but it requires a deflib and alot of medicine to recover oxygen and other damage while doing the procedure.
I was once revived that way. Kinda cool that I was revived on the spot that way insted of being dragged to cloning!

But yea... making medical harder and realisitc takes away time and most players do not want to spend MORE TIME in medbay since they want to do things during their own shift.

[Maegor]

I think removing monkey cloning would be better. It's exceedingly easy to do, and fixes most cases where cloning doesn't work.

Monkey SRin could stay though