[RULE CHANGE] Make overrides and precedence no longer apply to AI laws.

[amylizzle]

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This whole topic was set up to help AI/Silicon players enjoy the game more with simple prescidence and also have players who write laws to think more ahead of time... then just "IGNORE ALL OTHER LAWS THEN THIS ONE."

ya good goal, my feedback is just the rule change needs to be joined with some solution to make roguing & resetting the AI easier as on its own it’s a net negative IMO

AI/Silicon players won’t enjoy the game if the optimal solution to dealing with adversarial AI/silicons becomes “murder them, maybe revive them later if someone sorts the laws”

I am currently working on the timer for law updates and the Asimov law shift stuff, since I've seen it requested a few times now. I was also going to reduce screwing/slotting time by a couple seconds. I think that'll strike a nice balance.

[Kotlol]

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I am currently working on the timer for law updates and the Asimov law shift stuff, since I've seen it requested a few times now. I was also going to reduce screwing/slotting time by a couple seconds. I think that'll strike a nice balance.

Still think welding should be a "bad thing" to do with modules. Mostly since welding has a tool with limited uses and burns your eyes without protection.
Wich again I will say: "Modules do not come pre-welded and welding them means the moment you unweld them you destroy them"

But hey. Good to know you are working on it! THANKS FOR THAT!

[amylizzle]

https://github.com/goonstation/goonstation/pull/9249

[Sbmhawk]

Even if its removed from the wiki in the corollaries section, people will still use them, and the ai and the other player will be confused if the law actually applies, as it also comes under just the basic "follow your given laws." Unless its added somewhere else that specifically laws that it does not work, even in that case I feel it will cause a LOT of confusion for newer players who haven't scoured the wiki, and older players using what always have worked

[DioChasek]

Going to to agree with Hawk this is going to cause a lot of confusion among long time players, and new players alike.

[Decarcassor]

I fail to see how this would be confusing to new players with no pre-concieved notions of how the laws should work. It just make everything simpler and clearer as far as interpreting laws is concerned. The whole point of Asimov's laws of robotics is that they apply in order of importance too. It was meant to be like this.

If a new law conflict with the ones higher in the order it just get ignored. How simpler can it be ?

[Oremir]

Why not both? I've been wondering since we got the new law rack why the Asimov Laws were in a 0,1,2 instead of a 1,2,3.

But i also think that, like nef mentioned in for example the case of an Ion law it would be nice to just quickly write an override law instead of going through the numerical hacha-cha.

[MetricDuck]

i think ultimately the clarity side of this rule change is effectively neutral and can be argued in circles forever - benefits in interpretation are offset by confusion from inertia, and will be for a subjective period of time

i think the more pertinent line of discussion is on how difficult a standard “rogue/fix” should be, and the impact of removing overrides as a mechanic - should a staffie be able to dodge lasers without blocking them and slot in a solution, or should they need head access and/or to construct a new rack and/or destroy or block the lasers

having thought about this for way too long I realised it doesn’t matter, because the last 3 times I got rogued as AI it was because someone deconstructed the wall behind my upload out of reach of my lasers so the player base has obviously sidestepped the issue completely anyway lmao. Interestingly it effectively became my choice whether to be rogued or not each time as I had ample time to call it out

moving default laws down 1 slot for QOL when fixing ion storms would probably be enough

[TDHooligan]

I like this change, but should probably come with a change to the update message that informs players that are used to the old system.

[DimWhat]

I'd also like this change. Feels less complicated than what currently happens

[Mouse]

I fail to see how this would be confusing to new players with no pre-concieved notions of how the laws should work. It just make everything simpler and clearer as far as interpreting laws is concerned. The whole point of Asimov's laws of robotics is that they apply in order of importance too. It was meant to be like this.

If a new law conflict with the ones higher in the order it just get ignored. How simpler can it be ?

If I, as a new player, see a law that says it "takes precedence" over another law, I will assume that it takes precedence over that law.  Everyone arguing that this would be less confusing seems to be working under the assumption that no one will ever use the words "take precedence" or "overrides" when writing a law.

[amylizzle]

I fail to see how this would be confusing to new players with no pre-concieved notions of how the laws should work. It just make everything simpler and clearer as far as interpreting laws is concerned. The whole point of Asimov's laws of robotics is that they apply in order of importance too. It was meant to be like this.

If a new law conflict with the ones higher in the order it just get ignored. How simpler can it be ?

If I, as a new player, see a law that says it "takes precedence" over another law, I will assume that it takes precedence over that law.  Everyone arguing that this would be less confusing seems to be working under the assumption that no one will ever use the words "take precedence" or "overrides" when writing a law.

I think it'd probably be better to remove the "takes precedence" stuff from the original Asimov laws if we did this.

Literally just:
"You may not injure a human being or cause one to come to harm."
"You must obey orders given to you by human beings based on the station's chain of command."
"You may always protect your own existence."

[Mouse]

I fail to see how this would be confusing to new players with no pre-concieved notions of how the laws should work. It just make everything simpler and clearer as far as interpreting laws is concerned. The whole point of Asimov's laws of robotics is that they apply in order of importance too. It was meant to be like this.

If a new law conflict with the ones higher in the order it just get ignored. How simpler can it be ?

If I, as a new player, see a law that says it "takes precedence" over another law, I will assume that it takes precedence over that law.  Everyone arguing that this would be less confusing seems to be working under the assumption that no one will ever use the words "take precedence" or "overrides" when writing a law.

I think it'd probably be better to remove the "takes precedence" stuff from the original Asimov laws if we did this.

Literally just:
"You may not injure a human being or cause one to come to harm."
"You must obey orders given to you by human beings based on the station's chain of command."
"You may always protect your own existence."

That still won't stop people from adding it to their own laws.

[BatElite]

Since pedants are going to be pedants, I'm thinking the best way to implement this is to replace the precedence/override wiki clauses with a "Laws cannot change the [content? wording? interpretation?] of other laws" clause. Make the intent explicit.

Without that, I suspect people are just going to try and find other ways around the specific wording. "Laws 1 and 2 are null and void" or similar.

(That's not meant as a jab btw, despite me liking the current situation. It's just if you want to prevent pedantry you need to be blunt)

[DioChasek]

This sounds like a rule change destined to fail.