Remove Kudzupeople or make some big changes

[George_Manning]

First off, let me say I love kudzu. The idea of an antagonist using a sort of blob-like threat to keep others distracted while he goes about his dastardly plans is awesome, as is the feeling of the entire station being consumed by plants as you run around as a killer botanist. My issue comes not with kudzu, but as the title suggests, kudzupeople. My issues with them are as follows

1. There's a fairly large subsect of people that actively suicide on top of kudzu to become kudzupeople and spread this objectively harmful thing throughout the station. It is strange that a person can CHOOSE to become a role with such oftentimes harmful implications


2. Kudzu people don't really serve a purpose beyond interrupting the game flow. Sure, you could argue it's a way for the victims of rampaging antagonists to come back to life, but 90% of the time what happens in my experience is that the victims are killed when it would be much better for the station to have extra crewmembers cloned or at least borgs onhand, as if kudzu is bad enough that a rampaging antag is creating kudzupeople the station needs some extra help, not people to further spread that threat

3. If you choose to become a human again after dying on kudzu via genetics, (and as we all know you don't exactly choose where you die in this game), it is a buggy mess where if you have plant accessories they will sometimes stay with you. Basically if you die on kudzu, and want to be cloned, it's a huge hassle to do so


Thank you for coming to my TED Talk

[Kotlol]

"How to tell someone you don't know what Kudzu people's benefit without saying it"

Yes Kudzu people can be a problem in spreading and being antagonistic unintentionally, but Kudzu people aren't just "Plant zombies that do nothing"
That's people who do not know how to kudzu people or such.

What can Kudzu people do then?
Be a better botany.
That's right.. Kudzu folk can actually construct their own botany bay from Kudzu that works much better then normal botany.
Their trays are automatic refilling, their trays and plant pcs (yes they get this) do not cost power at all and most of all...
You do not need to order more trays for them to do their job...They just grow some thick kudzu and a new tray is born.
What about seeds? They can grow that themselves out of them, the more kudzu they have.. the faster they can work.

They just can't get materials like Mutagen/Potash/Such right away... but they can work with it.

Also the whole point of dieing ontop of Kudzu being bad is part why it's an antagonistic item. It transforms someone into something they don't want. Thus don't die on Kudzu and have someone drag your corpse from it. Or just die again...

If people wanna be kudzu folk it shouldnt be an issue, in the end.. if command says the kudzu folk are causing problems, execute them. That's that. You are allowed to do this. Kudzu folk are "free to kill" technically, but with moderation.

So yea... why remove it? Some changes for what? They can do more then be invisible and heal people you know...
If done well.. Kudzu folk can be "Great Botanists" "Great people who can heal you in a pinch" "Great security as their grass whip knocks people away into walls" ...If you can't be creative with Kudzu folk.. ya ain't doing it right.

[Kamikaze Mongoose]

+ I've experienced a bug that causes people to instantly eject their body and become a ghost upon transformation. I've seen this bug off and on across the years with the latest being a month or two ago. I've never experimented with whether or not you can monkey/regular clone them, but assuming it was the best case scenario and that it didn't permanently remove a player from the round, this still causes a gigantic hassle that increases how long it takes to bring these people back into the game. Dying is inconvenient and we all accept that because it's intended, but dying multiple times to a glitch when you're being kudzu revived is unintentional and frustrating.

+ I'm aware it's not a perfectly fair comparison, but it's odd that borg players will be punished for seeking out an emag but players suiciding to become kudzu isn't. Thankfully Kudzu people can't just attack people outside of personal defense (which is why it's not a fair comparison), but they're both traitor items and they can both be used to grief (see below).

+ It's pretty easy to get away with spreading the harmful kudzu because it seems like you're supposed to do that. The prompt tells you that you are a non-violent and non-antagonist creature, but it also tells you your motivation is to protect and grow the kudzu and that you are also allowed to protect yourself if attacked. This gets mixed up a lot and it's very common to see kudzu people attacking players who are hacking away at the plant that keeps them alive.

+ This is more of a community mindset and a LRP specific issue, but anything remotely valid on the LRP servers is almost guaranteed to be murdered. It doesn't matter if you're peaceful or not, valid creatures get their shit kicked in because it's protected by rules and it's fun to fight things. But unlike monkeys or other valids, you can murder a kudzu person over and over because the kudzu will bring them back when their corpse hits the kudzu.



I agree with the direction of this post that kudzu people are in a weird place right now. I love the way they look on paper, but the implementation of them right now causes many issues that dwarf the creative/fun things you can do with them. I think putting them on ice until they're repaired might improve the quality of life for players overall.  The first issue would be a change to the code, but I have no idea how to stop the second issue. The third issue could be fixed with a revised kudzu person pop-up and the fourth would need a revision to their valid status to fix.

EDIT: It'd be neat if becoming a plant person was something that happened through diligent Botany processes and didn't valid the player, but they would still trade stats and the ability to wear certain items to become stronger botanists but have the ability to live without standing on specific tiles.

[Kotlol]

+ I've experienced a bug that causes people to instantly eject their body and become a ghost upon transformation. I've seen this bug off and on across the years with the latest being a month or two ago. I've never experimented with whether or not you can monkey/regular clone them, but assuming it was the best case scenario and that it didn't permanently remove a player from the round, this still causes a gigantic hassle that increases how long it takes to bring these people back into the game. Dying is inconvenient and we all accept that because it's intended, but dying multiple times to a glitch when you're being kudzu revived is unintentional and frustrating.

+ I'm aware it's not a perfectly fair comparison, but it's odd that borg players will be punished for seeking out an emag but players suiciding to become kudzu isn't. Thankfully Kudzu people can't just attack people outside of personal defense (which is why it's not a fair comparison), but they're both traitor items and they can both be used to grief (see below).

+ It's pretty easy to get away with spreading the harmful kudzu because it seems like you're supposed to do that. The prompt tells you that you are a non-violent and non-antagonist creature, but it also tells you your motivation is to protect and grow the kudzu and that you are also allowed to protect yourself if attacked. This gets mixed up a lot and it's very common to see kudzu people attacking players who are hacking away at the plant that keeps them alive.

+ This is more of a community mindset and a LRP specific issue, but anything remotely valid on the LRP servers is almost guaranteed to be murdered. It doesn't matter if you're peaceful or not, valid creatures get their shit kicked in because it's protected by rules and it's fun to fight things. But unlike monkeys or other valids, you can murder a kudzu person over and over because the kudzu will bring them back when their corpse hits the kudzu.



I agree with the direction of this post that kudzu people are in a weird place right now. I love the way they look on paper, but the implementation of them right now causes many issues that dwarf the creative/fun things you can do with them. I think putting them on ice until they're repaired might improve the quality of life for players overall.  The first issue would be a change to the code, but I have no idea how to stop the second issue. The third issue could be fixed with a revised kudzu person pop-up and the fourth would need a revision to their valid status to fix.

EDIT: It'd be neat if becoming a plant person was something that happened through diligent Botany processes and didn't valid the player, but they would still trade stats and the ability to wear certain items to become stronger botanists but have the ability to live without standing on specific tiles.

Kudzu defender kot comes in again... but okay let me respond to the following points.

1: ..Had this glitch too, this glitch is 100% an issue and should be fixed, but it's super rare. Same as rare as me suddenly turning into a borg or AI when I am just walking around. (Another glitch) If it can't be fixed.. it's rare anyway.. sucks but rare.

2: People love Kudzu cults, infact some traitors/spy's will set it up so the kudzu is contained from the get go! They still go the antag route of doing it without permission but once done they keep it to their designated area most of the time and chapel becomes a nice botany v2. Kudzu is infact more beingn and annoying then grieving.

3: Harmfull kudzu is wild kudzu who only force open doors and grow thick like walls (and apperently drain oxygen levels but I don't think thats true). If anything... it doesnt kill players, it annoys them to no end. Like your emag example.. Emags don't kill either an annoy players, the differnce with Emag it turns borgs into antags, breaks doors, makes machines attack players and is by far MORE DESTRUCTIVE then Kudzu as you can contain kudzu but an Emag player can do much more damage in the amount of time Kudzu can be a threat to the station.
Also kudzu people attack players who cut Kudzu are not griefing. You are to protect Kudzu as part of the hivemind, if the hivemind is "aggresive" to add more to their mind like a changeling.. that's a thing but technically against the rules of Kudzu. But if a player is hacking away kudzu, yes THE KUDZU PLAYER IS VALIDATED TO ATTACK THEM SINCE FOR RP/LORE REASONS YOU ARE ATTACKING THEM INDIRECTLY! I repeat "HIVEMIND" All kudzu is technically part of the Kudzu Player.
Is it right? Nope kinda dickish... but when it comes to that... Command can order the burn down. That simple.. Again.. Kudzu players are considered "non human" and can be killed with no backlash.

4: Kudzu people get killed right away? Yea that's a thing.. it sucks.. but.. on RP servers we tend to get command who are more willing and peacefull to work with Kudzu and make a deal, I don't know for classic. They probaly murder them on classic since that's more action oriented then the slower RP servers.
This where a full on RP player such as myself think Kudzu people is A-okay, where as classic servers roll their eyes annoyed.
From every kudzu cult i see on RP, most are well behaved and make deals with command.. and when I am part of it they mostly tend to behave in peace.

In my opinion overall is the fact players are unwilling to use Kudzu to their full benefit and see it as a problem. It is true Kudzu cults / kudzu lovers can ruin a good use of Kudzu situation and the haters are too willing to burn it down. But freezing kudzu people feature for these reasons is still wrong.
Do they need some extra work? Maybe.. or maybe people need to understand that if you want to be a fun and good kudzu person.. LEARN HOW TO BE A BOTANIST AND KNOW KUDZU'S ABILLITIES!

This is why if I see a kudzu cult form on RP, I tend to focus my efforts on them and teach them all about Kudzu (in LOOC for abillities like making botany trays) so they can get maximum enjoyment out of it and be benefical to the station. 

Kudzu people could use an update or two, but removing them outright due to bad actors is wrong. If anything... command decides what to do with kudzu, if the Kudzu person gets mad cause the command decided to burn anything kudzu for a reason, it's their own fault for doing it. That is the RISK of being a kudzu person.

[Kamikaze Mongoose]

The prompt states: "Kudzu is non-violent by nature, do not harm Humans unless they harm you!"

This implies being attacked directly (fist to face contact) and not if the kudzu on the ground is attacked. Please don't attack people removing kudzu of any kind or encourage this behavior in other players. EDIT: If not for vague rule reasons, it helps with not being infinitely murdered when you aren't spreading bad kudzu.

I highly recommend not making the harmful kudzu (pure green or pink is harmful, the only benign kudzu has flowers on it) grow further on purpose since some of the doors it can hold open include sensitive areas (security, armory, etc) and also the doors on the outside of the station that separate space and the entire ocean from the inside of the station.

The other gigantic reason to not spread it is because kudzu is a traitor item and recognized as being annoying to the point of harmful. Causing it to spread rampantly on purpose puts you close, if not inside of, the field of not assisting antags rule that non-antags follow.

[KikiMofo]

The prompt states: "Kudzu is non-violent by nature, do not harm Humans unless they harm you!"

This implies being attacked directly (fist to face contact) and not if the kudzu on the ground is attacked. Please don't attack people removing kudzu of any kind or encourage this behavior in other players. EDIT: If not for vague rule reasons, it helps with not being infinitely murdered when you aren't spreading bad kudzu.

I highly recommend not making the harmful kudzu (pure green or pink is harmful, the only benign kudzu has flowers on it) grow further on purpose since some of the doors it can hold open include sensitive areas (security, armory, etc) and also the doors on the outside of the station that separate space and the entire ocean from the inside of the station.

The other gigantic reason to not spread it is because kudzu is a traitor item and recognized as being annoying to the point of harmful. Causing it to spread rampantly on purpose puts you close, if not inside of, the field of not assisting antags rule that non-antags follow.

Generally people trying to burn away kudzu will also attack kudzu people and then all the kudzu people defend their kudzu buddies and the crew sees that as kudzu people attacking the crew and thats what leads to all out brawls.

[Decarcassor]

"How to tell someone you don't know what Kudzu people's benefit without saying it"

Yes Kudzu people can be a problem in spreading and being antagonistic unintentionally, but Kudzu people aren't just "Plant zombies that do nothing"
That's people who do not know how to kudzu people or such.

What can Kudzu people do then?
Be a better botany.
That's right.. Kudzu folk can actually construct their own botany bay from Kudzu that works much better then normal botany.
Their trays are automatic refilling, their trays and plant pcs (yes they get this) do not cost power at all and most of all...
You do not need to order more trays for them to do their job...They just grow some thick kudzu and a new tray is born.
What about seeds? They can grow that themselves out of them, the more kudzu they have.. the faster they can work.

They just can't get materials like Mutagen/Potash/Such right away... but they can work with it.

How would you know what Kudzupeoples do, when they are complelty undocumented ? There is nothing on the wiki about them. I had never seen pink kudzu until a few days ago. I had never heard of kudzupeoples having pseudo botany powers until I read this post.

Maybe the status of Kudzupeoples need to be clarified and their abilities added to the wiki, but I don't know enough to form a definitive opinion.

[babayetu83]

the lack of documentation is a painpoint and even moreso is the lack of any real properly laid out rules/etc for how to treat and handle them and how/how not to act as a kudzu person

[Confuseddp]

Antagonistic? Kudzu people can't even harm intent people, it just says "They wail their arms angrily" when you try to punch.

[Kotlol]

the lack of documentation is a painpoint and even moreso is the lack of any real properly laid out rules/etc for how to treat and handle them and how/how not to act as a kudzu person

So this is the true reason you believe?

Confueseddp they can deploy a whip arm and smack you good.

[George_Manning]

the lack of documentation is a painpoint and even moreso is the lack of any real properly laid out rules/etc for how to treat and handle them and how/how not to act as a kudzu person

And it's also confusing how the prompts describe your singular goal is to spread the kudzu, but then you can benign it if you're feeling nice? It's unclear if that's just a suggestion, but the antag-style popup makes it seem like it's a mindslave like objective.

[Kamikaze Mongoose]

Most of what I know of Kudzu people is from the prompt as well as from personal experience. The wiki says they're non-human, but that's about all you get on kudzu people there. You have to filter the Discord for any more information and the opinions in there on what they can do vary wildly, so it's a pretty confusing topic.

[mabelmabel]

the lack of documentation is a painpoint and even moreso is the lack of any real properly laid out rules/etc for how to treat and handle them and how/how not to act as a kudzu person

And it's also confusing how the prompts describe your singular goal is to spread the kudzu, but then you can benign it if you're feeling nice? It's unclear if that's just a suggestion, but the antag-style popup makes it seem like it's a mindslave like objective.

this, i absolutely love playing as kudzupeople and would be sad if they went but for my first like 2 games where i got to play as them i thought benign kudzu was like a fail state where the kudzu didnt grow or spread properly. the description for planting it is like "direct the kudzu's growth by showing it where not to grow" or something so the realization that actually that button makes kudzu appear in a way that wont piss people off and costs less is. fucked?

[babayetu83]

the lack of documentation is a painpoint and even moreso is the lack of any real properly laid out rules/etc for how to treat and handle them and how/how not to act as a kudzu person

So this is the true reason you believe?

Confueseddp they can deploy a whip arm and smack you good.

yes, i think it would help resolve issues of fighting and other frustrations and annoyances demonstrated by multiple people here

[Kotlol]

the lack of documentation is a painpoint and even moreso is the lack of any real properly laid out rules/etc for how to treat and handle them and how/how not to act as a kudzu person

So this is the true reason you believe?

Confueseddp they can deploy a whip arm and smack you good.

yes, i think it would help resolve issues of fighting and other frustrations and annoyances demonstrated by multiple people here

I think I agree on this, considering I am one of the rare people here that explained that Kudzu people can be a very effective botany. And the reason I found out because of it is because I saw another kudzu cult once make grass computers and botany trays and asked them.
I know Goon prides themselves on their secret interactions too, but this one needs more clarification.