Complaint zamujasa 28/2 goon 1 (stop being awful)

[McDougie]

Title is direct quote from zamujasa - not a comment by myself.

Stephanie Mir says, "cool tele trap built by some dweeb"

Stephanie Mir says, "oh hey it's the teletrap creator" (since when did admins identify antags publically????????)

Stephanie Mir says, "boring and lame as shit"

Stephanie Mir says, "zero stars"

Keegan Owens says, "i did not realize i asked for your opinion"

Other context (my response on seeing a giant bit of admin text above the trap labelling it as lame etc):
Keegan Owens says, "i mean sure"
Keegan Owens says, "call my stuff lame"
Keegan Owens says, "doesn t exactly"
Keegan Owens says, "give me a good opinion"





Then after I died (ironically to my own trap much to many peoples amusement including my own):
DEAD: Ghost (Keegan Owens) laments, "oh so its now dumb instead of lame" (Me noticing giant text floating over the trap was changed - someone likely knew what they said was not at all nice or it simply would never have been changed)
DEAD: Ghost (Hane Larz) wails, "ITS BOTH DUMB AND LAME"
DEAD: Ghost (Keegan Owens) wails, "never had a badmin be so insulting over murdering people as antag lol"

Then a minute after that comment this appears:


You have been banned by zamujasa.

Reason: This is very much a "I think your playstyle sucks ass and is part of the reason people hate Gang" ban, but also because gang is a team mode where you're supposed to work with your gang to beat other gangs while trying to avoid killing civilians. Your dumb teletrap has illed most of the server and, in a hilarious "twist", your boring, instant-kill trap managed to team-kill two of your own gang members. Stop being awful.



Respect works two ways - there are much nicer and better ways about going about these things and a label calling a specific player lame, boring etc for the entire round to see is just shitty. Period.
It suggests more investment in looking down on people than actually bringing any positive change. Its pulling the entire servers population into an issue that should have been dealt with privately between myself and the admin.
I have never once seen that happen to anyone else for even much worse issues - racists, bigots etc just get booted. Telling someone their playstyle 'sucks ass' (seriously????) even in quotes is... literally just quoting yourself? Like who even does that? Ignoring that ... sticking quote marks round your own words does not make them somehow not your responsbility.

Can't believe Im even typing this as its completely insane but if I ever do anything banworthy again I would much rather just be treated the exact same as a racist bigot and just banned straight away. Nobody publically shames any of the people who make *those* sorts of comments. Its a quiet ahelp, the person vanishes and thats it. Far better and way more professional than what happened here.

Its public ridicule and not the way I expect a mature and reasonable admin to behave - afaik shamecubing was specifically stopped because of that exact reason - its not a nice or reasonable way to treat people at all. It leads directly to resentment against specific admins and thoroughly trashes any perception of impartiality and morality.

If you had quietly sent a PM asking for it to be dismantled then I would have done that. You didn't, instead you set up your gimmick kill counter, stood next to the trap for the entire time it existed, told anyone nearby I made it (again what happened to admins not identifying antags etc?), put up giant text ridiculing and naming me and then only after I made a comment in deadchat that I had never had an admin be that rude to me you decided to ban me. This comes across as petty immature revenge for the comment rather than anything to do with the trap - otherwise why did the ban come right after that comment? if it was truely due to the traps impact on the game then it would/should have been shut down way sooner and there would have been no silly gimmick kill counter etc.

I came back to repair it at points and space a couple of people dismantling it - why didnt you tell me to stop then? There were so many opportunities and ways to deal with this in a professional manner that were not taken. It was ONLY after the comment about a rude badmin that the ban came (note the comment didnt name said badmin - a courtesy given but not received). Im sure there will be some explanation as to why the two were not related and how it was some other reason but the timing speaks for itself. The ban came in way after peoples rounds had already been impacted and like a minute after I made the comment. Its extremely difficult for me to rationalize it as anything other than a reaction to the comment which I stand by 100%. The behavior was indeed very rude (plus some other choice words) and I had at the time never myself directly seen an admin behave this way.


Why are we turning someones actions into a public fingerpointing gimmick then banning them for said actions? Just ban/ PM / tell off/ / gib / etc and stick your annoying kill counter elsewhere. It gives the wrong message completely. 


I would like some other admins to comment on whether publically ridiculing a player in this manner is remotely acceptable. I was under the impression that it was not- the fact that other players started mirroring zams specific comments just goes to show why such behavior can result in consequences involving other players other than the admin and offendee. We do not want witch hunts so why are we encouraging them like this? If we are not encouraging witchhunts then what the hell was the purpose of the text? A joke? Do you see me laughing? A bit of fun? For who exactly? Certainly not me.

I'd like to make the recommendation that if your going to ban someone for anything then don't set up an entire silly gimmick around the exact actions you later claim to ban them over. It comes across as inauthetic (read downright deceptive and immoral) and seriously weakens any reason you claim to give.  Infact I'd much rather not be involved in any gimmick at all by any individual that behaves like this. Its not the first time an interaction with zamujasa has left me feeling that something was really not good - zamujasa is the only admin i have ever considered making a complaint thread about prior to this. I decided not to then for fear of reprisals but at some point behavior like this needs calling out or it never changes.

Just to be clear - dont care about the 6hr ban. I probably did deserve it for what I did. I do not think I deserve the rest of the stuff that happened was at all nice or reasonable - especially given its a level of publically targetted malice against a specific player beyond what I have ever seen employed for even the most vile racists bigots etc.

Im so going to get in shit for this thread but theres a line in terms of what behavior is and is not acceptable for a person in a position of power over a community and to me that line was firmly crossed.

Just to finish this rant off here are some choice parts of the admin guidelines that I believe are relevant:

https://wiki.ss13.co/Admin_Guidelines

DISCOURAGED:

• Staff are strongly discouraged from maintaining negative or antagonistic conversational habits in Goonstation-branded spaces, even when it doesn't rise to the level of abuse - you're representing our community, please don't make us look bad.
  

• Staff are strongly discouraged from punishing or extensively reprimanding players in public venues, such as OOC or a public Discord channel. Instead, staff should seek to resolve those issues in more controlled spaces, such as in adminhelps or the #lets-talk channel.
  

• Administrators are strongly discouraged from revealing secrets of the round - the main example being the identity of any antagonists - to any player or member of the public while that round is in session. A few exceptions are a new player who has no idea what killed them, or if you are certain the player is out of the round for good - they are dead, their body has been destroyed, and they weren’t previously scanned in the cloner - and even then, exercise care, because they might talk about it in dead chat to someone who gets cloned.
  

[Zamujasa]

i'm tired and high but i'm going to respond to some direct points:

Title is direct quote from zamujasa - not a comment by myself.

Stephanie Mir says, "cool tele trap built by some dweeb"

Stephanie Mir says, "oh hey it's the teletrap creator" (since when did admins identify antags publically????????)

Stephanie Mir says, "boring and lame as shit"

Stephanie Mir says, "zero stars"

Keegan Owens says, "i did not realize i asked for your opinion"

Other context (my response on seeing a giant bit of admin text above the trap labelling it as lame etc):
Keegan Owens says, "i mean sure"
Keegan Owens says, "call my stuff lame"
Keegan Owens says, "doesn t exactly"
Keegan Owens says, "give me a good opinion"

i do comment on antag activity sometimes, yes, generally when they've had a major impact upon the station. this isn't unusual and it's a verbal version of the "send in a tactical syndie squad with the objective to kill the person who has murdered most of them".

Then after I died (ironically to my own trap much to many peoples amusement including my own):
DEAD: Ghost (Keegan Owens) laments, "oh so its now dumb instead of lame" (Me noticing giant text floating over the trap was changed - someone likely knew what they said was not at all nice or it simply would never have been changed)
DEAD: Ghost (Hane Larz) wails, "ITS BOTH DUMB AND LAME"
DEAD: Ghost (Keegan Owens) wails, "never had a badmin be so insulting over murdering people as antag lol"

you mixed up two events.

specifically, i called it lame to your face; you actually quoted this above

Stephanie Mir Zamujasa says, "boring and lame as shit" Aviary (226,116,1)

however, the decal text above your trap was set as this, and never changed:

[2022-02-28 12:25:02.854] [admin] Stephanie Mir (Zamujasa): modified decal's maptext to welcome to keegan owens's
- dumb tele graviton trap!
- it's what makes gang fun™

anyway, there's something i want to discuss, and it involves this:

Then a minute after that comment this appears:


You have been banned by zamujasa.

Reason: This is very much a "I think your playstyle sucks ass and is part of the reason people hate Gang" ban, but also because gang is a team mode where you're supposed to work with your gang to beat other gangs while trying to avoid killing civilians. Your dumb teletrap has illed most of the server and, in a hilarious "twist", your boring, instant-kill trap managed to team-kill two of your own gang members. Stop being awful.

i'm going to speak for myself here and not for the admin body at large; this is my opinion.

there is a thing that goes on here where we, the developer and admin team, can try to change behavior we don't like seeing.

- we can make a new rule. this happens sometimes, or we need to clarify things.
- we can change the game mechanics to forbid it. see: making teleport pads have an impossible-to-remove glow; removing interactions or adding delays to things. basically, what you call nerfs.
- we can enforce the behavior by targeting the player who express it.


i am a big proponent of the latter one. a lot of the time, problems are caused by a small number of people running a mechanic or interaction into the ground. it happened when people would constantly run sol every round; it wasn't that sol itself was particularly bad, it was that two or three people would constantly do it. it is like a "take a penny, leave a penny" tray at the convenience store, if you will; you're supposed to be responsible with it.

yesterday, alone, there were 3 gang rounds that i noticed, and all three had similar events like this. one had a teleport-graviton-crusher trap; one had a ttv detonate on the shuttle; one had a teletrap-graviton-brute trap, that is, yours. none of these were part of gang gameplay; they were gang members using their antag status to be a hardmode traitor.


again, that happened with your own trap, evidenced that you killed multiple people in your own gang and then yourself. this is akin to a mindslave ignoring their master's orders or a changeling critter / controller revealing its master. you are directly going against the rules of the mode!


rather than figuring out how we can slap on more arbitrary restrictions on mechanics tools ("requires them to stay still on the pad before it teleports? shows what's on the other side? remove them or pressure pads entirely?") , my goal is to drive change through negative reinforcement. what you are doing is not good for the game. i want you to stop doing it. the ban is my way of telling you that, because you have already ruined several other people's rounds with your utter lack of respect for the other people playing this game.

Respect works two ways - there are much nicer and better ways about going about these things and a label calling a specific player lame, boring etc for the entire round to see is just shitty. Period.
It suggests more investment in looking down on people than actually bringing any positive change. Its pulling the entire servers population into an issue that should have been dealt with privately between myself and the admin.
I have never once seen that happen to anyone else for even much worse issues - racists, bigots etc just get booted. Telling someone their playstyle 'sucks ass' (seriously????) even in quotes is... literally just quoting yourself? Like who even does that? Ignoring that ... sticking quote marks round your own words does not make them somehow not your responsbility.

Can't believe Im even typing this as its completely insane but if I ever do anything banworthy again I would much rather just be treated the exact same as a racist bigot and just banned straight away. Nobody publically shames any of the people who make *those* sorts of comments. Its a quiet ahelp, the person vanishes and thats it. Far better and way more professional than what happened here.

i'm not sure if we're playing the same game; i'm really not. naming and shaming these people is a common occurrence; we have shamecubed people for it, we have turned people into cluwnes with the name "I THINK SLURS ARE FUNNY, BEAT ME FOR PRIZES", i have personally summoned mike tyson and the banshark on people to make a spectacle of the racist getting shown the door. it is how i stand up and say "i could ban this guy quietly, but i want to send a message: this is not welcome here."

Its public ridicule and not the way I expect a mature and reasonable admin to behave - afaik shamecubing was specifically stopped because of that exact reason - its not a nice or reasonable way to treat people at all. It leads directly to resentment against specific admins and thoroughly trashes any perception of impartiality and morality.

when was shamecubing stopped, exactly? this is news to me because i very much still use it and see it used.

Why are we turning someones actions into a public fingerpointing gimmick then banning them for said actions? Just ban/ PM / tell off/ / gib / etc and stick your annoying kill counter elsewhere. It gives the wrong message completely. 

again: it's sending a message. your indiscriminate killing machine was killing everyone. when people tried to take it apart, you put it back together. it killed you, it killed your gang's members, it effectively took out over half of the station.

I'd like to make the recommendation that if your going to ban someone for anything then don't set up an entire silly gimmick around the exact actions you later claim to ban them over. It comes across as inauthetic (read downright deceptive and immoral) and seriously weakens any reason you claim to give.  Infact I'd much rather not be involved in any gimmick at all by any individual that behaves like this. Its not the first time an interaction with zamujasa has left me feeling that something was really not good - zamujasa is the only admin i have ever considered making a complaint thread about prior to this. I decided not to then for fear of reprisals but at some point behavior like this needs calling out or it never changes.

quite similar to how i feel about bad antag behavior; i just call it out in-game.

Im so going to get in shit for this thread but theres a line in terms of what behavior is and is not acceptable for a person in a position of power over a community and to me that line was firmly crossed.

i'm going to ask you to stop with the repeated insinuations of this. you aren't going to get in shit. nobody cares. the supposed guidelines and rules that you care so much about even say that making a good faith complaint is basically wholly protected.

It suggests more investment in looking down on people than actually bringing any positive change. Its pulling the entire servers population into an issue that should have been dealt with privately between myself and the admin.

you pulled the entire server's population into the issue by killing them all.

[McDougie]

" yesterday, alone, there were 3 gang rounds that i noticed, and all three had similar events like this. one had a teleport-graviton-crusher trap; one had a ttv detonate on the shuttle; **one had a teletrap-graviton-brute trap, that is, yours**. none of these were part of gang gameplay; they were gang members using their antag status to be a hardmode traitor."

So the ban I got today is for a round you saw yesterday where I built a grav brute trap? I think that actually happened today in the exact round we are talking about. i thnik you are possibly confusing me for some other person if you think I was involved in a grav trap yesterday. I think I did make one yesterday as a non antag but it was voluntary only with clear labelling and out of the way as I have been told to do previously by admins.

Ive been told by other more active admins (Katzen if memory serves correctly) the stuff about shame cubes not being used. I've seen one like once since I started playing, maybe they get used a lot when Im not online but in my experience they just dont happen. The reasoning I gave was the reason given to me by again i think Katzen. Apologies Katzen for pulling you into this but it would be appreciated if you could confirm if you remember saying that.

Anyway lets just take a step back - ignore all the stuff about gangs and traps and whatnot as thats irrelevent to the way you behaved. If that was what the issue we would be having this discussion in the ban forum - this is the admin feedback forum. This is nothing to do with gangs, traps or anything like that and specifically about how you chose to act. I thought I was pretty clear about that in my post - but apparently that was not understood as other issues with gang rounds I was nothing to do with were bought up as a justification.

**I want someone impartial on the admin team to check out whether this statement: "you mixed up two events." is remotely truthful because I do not believe it at all.**

I very much remember seeing word lame in the text you added. This is further corroborated by the timing of my response - in my text file of that rounds chat the line where you said 'lame' was 1290. The bit where I said these comments:
Keegan Owens says, "i mean sure"
Keegan Owens says, "call my stuff lame"
is around line 1862.
Admittedly it copied a fair bit of whitespace but nowhere near enough to account for nearly 600 lines of action between your comment and my supposed response to it. Suggesting my comments were directly in response to something that happened 600 lines before is not at all reasonable. Its just not true.

Quite frankly my own memory and copy of the rounds text suggests that you are either completely wrong or outright lying. I noticed the very first thing you chose to say in response to this was you were tired and high. I would be extremely disappointed if that was accepted as an excuse for any of this - in particular the part where my own memory and copy of the round directly contradicts what you claim. This is either a very bad mistake or directly gaslighting. I hope the seriousness of that alone is taken on board fully because its a terrible and extremely immoral thing to do in any situation.

" i'm not sure if we're playing the same game; i'm really not. naming and shaming these people is a common occurrence; we have shamecubed people for it, we have turned people into cluwnes with the name "I THINK SLURS ARE FUNNY, BEAT ME FOR PRIZES", i have personally summoned mike tyson and the banshark on people to make a spectacle of the racist getting shown the door. it is how i stand up and say "i could ban this guy quietly, but i want to send a message: this is not welcome here."

No it is not - Ive seen like maybe 2 or 3 events like this in the entire time Ive spent on goon. Maybe it was part of the culture once upon a time but its completely absent when I play. Note that every description you gave in reference toa specific action is in past tense, only the generalization is present. We have... we have... I have... etc etc.

" you pulled the entire server's population into the issue by killing them all. "

Could we kindly stick that hyperbolic language back in the dustbin where it belongs. I did not kill the entire server population, probably not even half, describing it that way is trying to make what I did seem worse to somehow negate anything you did. Also even for events affecting an entire server the admin discussion with the player is kept in PMs etc. Maybe a terse OOC comment to say its dealt with but not sitting their lording over someones trap for like half a round with a kill count etc etc etc only then to ban right after a comment about rudeness. Come on... would you believe that reason? If it was so bad then why didnt you do anything to stop it until the round was over? A simple PM would have done the job.

And nothing you said negates the fact that you directly broke 3 of the 'DISCOURAGED' admin guidelines in a single round against a single player then either directly lied or were too high to remember correctly what happened.

Also if any player said this in a ban appeal how would it go down? "the **supposed** guidelines and rules **that you care so much about** even say that ...." Doesnt sound like the words of a person who takes said rules and guidelines at all seriously to me. Ive seen similar language called out in ban appeals. The rules that YOU care so much about? Sounds like someone is implying that someone other than myself doesnt care about the admin guidelines. Theres not a lot of people in this context that it could apply to.

" i'm going to ask you to stop with the repeated insinuations of this. you aren't going to get in shit. nobody cares. the supposed guidelines and rules that you care so much about even say that making a good faith complaint is basically wholly protected."

You have a reputation and have been named for doing this before. Il shut up about it now and hope what you said in that part atleast is true but it didnt come from nowhere.

I accept what I did was wrong - I directly caused the death of two of my gang members including the leader. Im not excusing or justifying that in any way. I waited out my first and so far only ban. Now can we get the conversation back onto the actual topic this thread is about? Its not gangs or traps, its your words and actions.

[Katzen]

My ears pricked up as someone mentioned my name.

There is no policy on shamecubes. Don't exactly remember the conversation but I think I said something along the lines of them not being used much as a general statement, not about administration approach. They have quite a narrow area of relevance, serious offenses you just want to go for a ban, minor offenses it's excessive to use them and cause an announcement. Things that are "you should know better and did a dumb thing".

[McDougie]

Thanks for that Katzen, cat ears are very sensitive. I think it was a while ago we had that conversation so its entirely possible I misremembered or misinterpreted. Either way shamecubes are rare, Ive seen them only a couple of times ever.

Anyway - think we need to clear up what the specific issues are here.

1) We have an admin openly admitting they seem to think they are above the admin guidelines - why do they even exist if thats acceptable? We have 3 'strongly discouraged' guidelines broken in a single event and unapologetically aswell. Not even a vague acknowledgement of any fault at all.

2) We have an admin that either directly lied in a complaint thread about them or somehow managed to misremember their own actions from earlier the very same day (tired and high is still not a excuse for this, its your responsibility to ensure you are mentally capable of being an effective administrator)

3) We have an admin that claims to have banned for one reason but took no action (other than a stupid gimmick entirely based round the exact thing I was banned for) until a comment about them being rude was made and then I was banned right away (this comes across as petty vindictive revenge over the comment)

I appreciate that an accusation of deception or inability to recall their own actions from the same day is an extremely serious accusation to make of a member of the admin team.

So I cleaned up my file a bit to remove the empty lines and give more accurate information.

(file minus empty lines)
Line 584 -
Stephanie Mir says, "boring and lame as shit"
Line 851 -
Keegan Owens says, "i mean sure"

Then the claim made by Zamujasa in the response above:
"you mixed up two events.
specifically, i called it lame to your face; you actually quoted this above
however, the decal text above your trap was set as this, and never changed:"

So between the two lines based on my recollection and whats in the file I went back to mechanics to get more teleporters, I put 3 more teleporters down. I went to medbay and got healed(the trap was other side of station near escape - kondaru map) plus other stuff.

What is being claimed is that:
*Zamujasa said something
*I went for a merry little jog round station doing stuff that must have taken several minutes.
*I then came back and responded to what she said? That is insane and not how conversations work.

Also theres nothing text based saying lame anywhere near the part where I 'responded' in my copy of the round - it must have come from a visual queue. I remember seeing it.

Maybe the server logs will show the admin text change, maybe they wont, I dont know, it doesnt matter. The rest what I just described in terms of my actions between the two bits of dialogue will be trivial to validate from the logs.

It should not be hard for an impartial person to confirm whether anything I said here has truth to it. If there is any truth to it then we have an incorrect version of events presented as fact. No matter the cause - outright deception or just tired/drug related memory issues - thats well below the minimum standards I personally expect from anyone let alone an admin.

If the objective here is to discourage then dont do a damn gimmick. I do not think the approach taken was at all reasonable or even effective, I will probably build a bigger better and more dangerous trap first antag mech thats not a team round that I get. Hopefully it will get more than just half the server. Ive got a whole gimmick planned around it. No I do not want any kill counter or anything 'lame' like that anywhere near it.

This entire mess has thoroughly trashed any theoretical trace of trust and respect. Especially when combined with all the hyperbolic language, the excuse of being tired and high as the very first thing said (priorities come first, the 1st priority was to persuade they were not of sound mind - a blatent attempt at minimizing agency over their actions) and the issue of inability or unwillingness to recall their own actions from the same day they happened.

Someone here is completely wrong or outright lying about the events that happened and it is not me.

Apologies for being so forceful over this mess but there is something very wrong here. None of this is about the admin team in general, nearly all of you are great and fun.

I've said my piece and given the evidence I am able to give, I appreciate these things take time to look into and discuss.

[AlyasGrey]

Could we kindly stick that hyperbolic language back in the dustbin where it belongs. I did not kill the entire server population, probably not even half, describing it that way is trying to make what I did seem worse to somehow negate anything you did. 

So I was there for this, watched the whole round.

First point, yeah... you were clearly easily responsible for the deaths of over half the players on the server.  Including at least two members of your own gang, and if I remember right one of them was your gang's leader.  At least that's what I gathered from one of the saltiest deadchats I've ever witnessed.

With a total online population in the mid 40s and a total death counter showing 29, I watched at least five people end up inside your teletrap in around a minute.

-----------

I'm not going to respond again to anything in this thread unless directly asked to be an admin because I don't want this thread to turn into an argument/discussion, but I think it's probably fair to say there is a level of frustration with people turning gang rounds into an opportunity for folks to pull voluntary antag and do whatever they want with no concern for the mode or their fellow players that may have boiled over.  To be completely honest, that entire round was a murderbone the entire crew at lowpop using armory gear with zero sec trainwreck.

[Zamujasa]

hoo lordy that's a lot of words

for any other admins that care to look into this round:

main1 / 2022-02-28-11-32.html

" yesterday, alone, there were 3 gang rounds that i noticed, and all three had similar events like this. one had a teleport-graviton-crusher trap; one had a ttv detonate on the shuttle; **one had a teletrap-graviton-brute trap, that is, yours**. none of these were part of gang gameplay; they were gang members using their antag status to be a hardmode traitor."

So the ban I got today is for a round you saw yesterday where I built a grav brute trap? I think that actually happened today in the exact round we are talking about. i thnik you are possibly confusing me for some other person if you think I was involved in a grav trap yesterday. I think I did make one yesterday as a non antag but it was voluntary only with clear labelling and out of the way as I have been told to do previously by admins.

you misunderstood me.

- there was a gang round earlier in the day where a teleport-graviton-to-crusher trap was made. it killed many crew.
- there was a gang round earlier in the day where a ttv (or otherwise 192-power bomb) went off on the emergency shuttle before it left.
- there was a gang round where a teleport-graviton-throw-OHKO was built that killed many crew. this was yours.

but i want to make another point here:
- the ban was not for making a dumb trap. that was what the text was for.
- the ban was when i noticed that, included in the victims of your trap, was your own gang members.

if i was going to ban you for a dumb trap, i would have done it earlier, or at the very least not sat there and watched for a while. the reason you had a delay before you got booted was because i hadn't realized it was going to be a ban yet.

Anyway lets just take a step back - ignore all the stuff about gangs and traps and whatnot as thats irrelevent to the way you behaved.

but it is not. the way you behaved in a gang round, by making a trap, directly led to the public shaming, as well as your eventual ban. you cannot just go "ignoring the reason this happened,". you might as well go "ignoring that the earth is in fact round,"

If that was what the issue we would be having this discussion in the ban forum - this is the admin feedback forum. This is nothing to do with gangs, traps or anything like that and specifically about how you chose to act. I thought I was pretty clear about that in my post - but apparently that was not understood as other issues with gang rounds I was nothing to do with were bought up as a justification.

the feedback is still relevant to the event. both a theoretical ban appeal and this thread are about the same incident; you are just making your case that i behaved inappropriately here rather than in a ban appeal alleging it was an invalid/improper ban.

**I want someone impartial on the admin team to check out whether this statement: "you mixed up two events." is remotely truthful because I do not believe it at all.**

I very much remember seeing word lame in the text you added. This is further corroborated by the timing of my response - in my text file of that rounds chat the line where you said 'lame' was 1290. The bit where I said these comments:
Keegan Owens says, "i mean sure"
Keegan Owens says, "call my stuff lame"
is around line 1862.
Admittedly it copied a fair bit of whitespace but nowhere near enough to account for nearly 600 lines of action between your comment and my supposed response to it. Suggesting my comments were directly in response to something that happened 600 lines before is not at all reasonable. Its just not true.

here is a screenshot from our log viewer. you can ask any admin to verify this for you (note the time/date at the start of this post and unmark all but "admin").

you can feel whatever you want, but that does not make it into the truth.

Quite frankly my own memory and copy of the rounds text suggests that you are either completely wrong or outright lying.

i have explained my reasoning for what i did and why i believe it was appropriate.

[McDougie]

3 strongly discouraged admin guidelines still broken in one event - something you seem rather determined on not addressing.

And how do you explain the massive gap between your dialogue and what you say was my response? That still makes no sense at all and a small annotated snippet of part of a log file of you doing one thing is not evidence that you didnt do another thing.

Thats basic logic and nothing to do with how I 'feel' (mediocre try but just no...)

". you might as well go "ignoring that the earth is in fact round,""

You keep trying to drag this away from your actions here using overly hyperbolic language which I have already asked you to put back in the dustbin where it firmly belongs. That analogy is stupid. Why would you even want to try associate me with flat earthers?

If you knew that you were entirely innocent of all wrongdoing then you would not feel a need to overly exagerate everything I did and make nonsensical comparissons to some of the most extreme idiots on this planet. Talk about a desperate cheapshot.

"you are just making your case that i behaved inappropriately here rather than in a ban appeal alleging it was an invalid/improper ban."

I agree the ban was correct to give. Thats probably all I agree with you on.

Your very first words in your first response was an attempt to minmize agency by claiming dimished capacity. That alone should tell people all they need to know about how much responsibility you take for your actions.

" if i was going to ban you for a dumb trap, i would have done it earlier, or at the very least not sat there and watched for a while. the reason you had a delay before you got booted was because i hadn't realized it was going to be a ban yet."

You were by the trap the entire time it existed, most likly privy to the salty deadchat going on that alyasgrey mentioned and failed to notice my own gang members were killed by it until right after I made a comment about how rude you are?

Lets be realistic, you banned me for the comment using the trap as a justication. Either that or you were so high and hyped up over getting the opportunity to publically ridicule someone that you just were not aware of what was going on.

"you misunderstood me."

No I understood what you wrote fine. You intially said 'yesterday' then changed your words to 'earlier in the day '. You managed to confuse (as of now the day before) yesterday with (now yesterday) today somehow.

Lets just look at what you wrote:

**yesterday, alone,** there were **3 gang rounds** that i noticed, and **all three** had similar events like this. one had a teleport-graviton-crusher trap; one had a ttv detonate on the shuttle; one had a teletrap-graviton-brute trap, that is, yours. "

You said yesterday there were 3 gang rounds alone then went on to mention two other rounds I don't recall being part of then the round I was involved in.

But of course you refering to an event that happened the same day as 'yesterday' is somehow my misunderstanding? I don't see how I could be at all responsible for you not knowing what day you are talking about. Somehow you do see how that could be the case. External locus much?

I would like an impartial admin to check the logs and atleast confirm the time duration between the two bits of dialogue where zamujasa made the lame comment and when she thinks my response came.


We are at the point we have an admin holding someone else accountable for them seemingly not knowing what day they are talking about. This whilst fucking hilarious in some ways is overall a sad state of affairs.

[Mordent]

For the sake of reducing the reply length of these message by half by removing about half of the discussion points, the logs do not show Zamu changing the text above trap to include the word "lame".

She did, in-game, call the trap "boring and lame".

The label she added to the trap was, as far as I can tell, always the word "dumb".

The only "inconsistency" I can find is around this slice of the logs:

Stephanie Mir Zamujasa says, "i did not actually call it lame"
Stephanie Mir Zamujasa says, "i called it dumb"

Which I would argue is false as she did call it "boring and lame" prior to this, and did not call it "dumb" in-game, but it would also be easy to assume you were referring to the label which was always "dumb".

Essentially, as a third-party here I'm viewing the specific representation of the logs as a non-issue and would encourage moving past it. Even assuming she was talking about what she had said in-game about it, misremembering the specific adjective used to describe the way you were breaking the rules is not exactly a big deal.

[McDougie]

Thankyou for checking this Mordent.

I don't have either of those quotes in my copy which obviously only contains dialogue within earshot of my character.

I saw the word lame when I called it out. I went back to my copy and between being in medbay (other side of the station) and me saying that bit the only spoken dialogue I can see is the AI talking about a gunbot and someone removing their upload door and somebody else talking about a nicholas cage fanclub.

There was no dialogue at all that precipitated those comments within any reasonable timeframe. Even if the logs don't show it - it was there.

Anyway moving past that whether it was 'dumb' or 'lame' or whatever does not detract from everything else that happened - IE the admin guideline breaking and dismissive language about said guidelines and Zamujasa trying to hold me accountable for her not knowing what day she thinks she is talking about. I've smoked a lot more than my fair share of the devils lettuce and have never been so fucked up I was unable to know what day I was talking about.

The only explanations that I can think of is that either someone is incapable of accepting any responsibility for the words they themself wrote or someone was not of stable and sound mind in a pretty serious way whether from lack of sleep, drug abuse or something else. Its really not fucking hard to know that today is today and yesterday is yesterday.
I can't imagine what would make a person think that trying to blame someone else for such a basic mistake was at all a good idea - anyone can scroll up and just read for yourself what she wrote. There is no denying this. This page has been archived here: http://web.archive.org/web/2022030222285...?tid=18171 so there will be no going back and changing what was written without it being obvious to everyone.

Given the tiredness and drugs was the first thing bought up I'd say it wasn't the cause. It was the excuse. Priorities come first and Zamujasas first priority was to minimize agency by claiming diminished capacity. I'm not doubting that she was tired and high but the need to say that as the very first thing is setting up an excuse to use later down the line. She knew she needed an excuse. The words instinctive blame shifting and a deficiency of personal accountability come to mind.

We all know I am not the first person by a long shot to raise this sort of concern about her, its a pattern that goes back years.

[Zamujasa]

The only explanations that I can think of is that either someone is incapable of accepting any responsibility for the words they themself wrote or someone was not of stable and sound mind in a pretty serious way whether from lack of sleep, drug abuse or something else.

i do not appreciate your attempts at character assassination, because my first reply to your doorstopper of a complaint even specifically mentions and quotes your own god damn post where i straight up said i called it "lame" in IC speech but used "dumb" in the persistent maptext:

Then after I died (ironically to my own trap much to many peoples amusement including my own):
DEAD: Ghost (Keegan Owens) laments, "oh so its now dumb instead of lame" (Me noticing giant text floating over the trap was changed - someone likely knew what they said was not at all nice or it simply would never have been changed)
DEAD: Ghost (Hane Larz) wails, "ITS BOTH DUMB AND LAME"
DEAD: Ghost (Keegan Owens) wails, "never had a badmin be so insulting over murdering people as antag lol"

you mixed up two events.

specifically, i called it lame to your face; you actually quoted this above

Stephanie Mir Zamujasa says, "boring and lame as shit" Aviary (226,116,1)

however, the decal text above your trap was set as this, and never changed:

[2022-02-28 12:25:02.854] [admin] Stephanie Mir (Zamujasa): modified decal's maptext to welcome to keegan owens's
- dumb tele graviton trap!
- it's what makes gang fun™

this has now been confirmed by mordent who also independently checked the logs.


anyway:

Given the tiredness and drugs was the first thing bought up I'd say it wasn't the cause. It was the excuse. Priorities come first and Zamujasas first priority was to minimize agency by claiming diminished capacity.

you sure have a lot of strong words for someone who has, in this very thread, come out with multiple "this is absolutely what happened" anecdotes that turned out to not, in fact, happen, and then doubled/tripled/quadupled down on it in the face of absolute, undeniable evidence, while providing none of your own other than how you are absolutely sure you are right

We all know I am not the first person by a long shot to raise this sort of concern about her, its a pattern that goes back years.

"we all know"

---

 ALERT  

Zamujasa said:

however, the decal text above your trap was set as this, and never changed:

however!!!, our independent fact-checker analysis has shown that the text was changed to add an outline

thus we are forced to assess zamujasa's statement a rating of 173 Pinocchio's.

[McDougie]

"i do not appreciate your attempts at character assassination"

I'm sure you do not appreciate this post at all. You still held me accountable for you getting what day it was mixed up. I did caveat my statement with "The only explanations that I can think of" - perhaps you would like to offer an alternative explanation as to why you blamed me for getting what day it is mixed up?

" you sure have a lot of strong words for someone who has, in this very thread, come out with multiple "this is absolutely what happened" anecdotes that turned out to not, in fact, happen, and then doubled/tripled/quadupled down on it in the face of absolute, undeniable evidence, while providing none of your own other than how you are absolutely sure you are right"

I provided evidence of the massive time gap between your dialogue and what you claim is my response. Also I was sober when all this went down so I trust my recollection a lot more than yours. Either way it still does not detract from everything else. Lets drop the stuff about the label as Mordent suggested.

" thus we are forced to assess zamujasa's statement a rating of 173 Pinocchio's. "

Nobody is being forced to do anything here and the maturity of that sentence! Also did you just say that your own statement has a rating of '173 Pinocchio's'? You do realize that reads like you just called yourself a liar? I'm not sure what to make of that, given the context of this thread I doubt anyone would be surprised if you called me a liar but thats not what you wrote. And who (except Kanye West maybe?) refers to themself in 3rd person like that? just odd.
You might try claim it was intended to be sarcasm but considering the seriousness of this conversation and the fact that sarcasm is generally viewed negatively as a maladaptive coping mechanism for covertly expressing hostility and contempt I'd suggest that might not be the best approach. Also you yourself are the subject, I'd expect it to be aimed at me if that actually was the case. If it wasn't sarcasm then somehow you managed to get you and me mixed up?!!!!!!!!! wat.png

Could you please explain what you intended to convey with that sentence cause its utterly baffling.

Still no acknowledgement of breaking admin guidelines etc either.

"we all know"

Fine. Anyone who has been around on goonstation a while. Funny how you focused on who knows rather than whether its true. Interesting priority.

[Zamujasa]

are you continuing to insist that somehow the logs are wrong, with zero evidence

---

sigh

to reiterate: i misspoke and said that i did not call it lame. i did call it lame, in say. but the maptext always said "dumb". here are the logs again.

0:44:19.991 say Stephanie Mir Zamujasa says, "cool tele trap built by some dweeb" Aviary (226,116,1)
0:44:38.389 say Stephanie Mir Zamujasa says, "oh hey it's the teletrap creator" Aviary (226,116,1)
0:45:10.980 say Keegan Owens McDougle T: says, "thanks" South Primary Hallway (135,104,1)
0:45:33.259 say Stephanie Mir Zamujasa says, "boring and lame as shit" Aviary (226,116,1)

0:49:0x.xxx admin Stephanie Mir (Zamujasa): modified decal's maptext to "welcome to keegan owens's dumb tele graviton trap! it's what makes gang fun™
0:50:01.694 say Keegan Owens McDougle T: says, "i mean sure" Aviary (227,116,1)
0:50:04.637 say Keegan Owens McDougle T: says, "call my stuff lame" Aviary (227,116,1)
0:50:09.908 say Keegan Owens McDougle T: says, "doesn t exactly" Aviary (227,116,1)
0:50:14.693 say Keegan Owens McDougle T: says, "give me a good opinion" Aviary (227,116,1)

0:53:48.989 say Keegan Owens McDougle T [DEAD]: says, "ahh it was inevitable" South Crew Quarters (226,118,1)
0:54:11.763 say Stephanie Mir Zamujasa says, "i did not actually call it lame" South Crew Quarters (228,117,1)
0:54:14.070 say Stephanie Mir Zamujasa says, "i called it dumb" South Crew Quarters (228,117,1)
0:54:16.517 say Keegan Owens McDougle T [DEAD]: says, "oh so its now dumb instead of lame" South Crew Quarters (224,120,1)

the last part is the part that never happened. the text never changed.

[Adhara In Space]

Hi! I'm an admin who was not involved in this ban or situation.
I want to say a few things to you.

1: As a team, we discussed this feedback with Zamujasa and came to the conclusion that she should not have written that maptext message (maptext being the text that appears in the game world, not in the chat box) and then banned you. Instead, she should have just banned you. As that seems to be the main focus of this feedback, I hope this information helps!

2: Your ban length was 6 hours. You actually wrote this feedback post 4 hours after you were banned, which means that your ban was automatically lifted before Zamujasa even wrote her first reply here. I am bringing this up because if your ban was lifted, the only recourse you could reasonably hope to have in this thread was to bring to light that your treatment before or during the ban was unfair. While we as a team do not necessarily think it was unfair, we do not think it was the best way to handle it and have discussed this internally.

So where does this leave this feedback post? Well, your ban has been lifted. We have discussed what could have been done better in this situation with Zamujasa. Your post has had every tangible effect it could have ever had, given the severity of the feedback. Continuing to post here and claim that this is a conspiracy against you is, honestly, just going to embarrass yourself. This situation was very minor and we hope that it serves as a learning opportunity for you and Zamujasa.

Please play the game and have fun while continuing to keep our rules in mind. (Specifically those about grief! Thank you.)

[McDougie]

Shes been publically ridiculing and bullying people for years. There is no denying this. But sure, thats just a 'minor issue'.

You do realize anyone can type Zamujasa into google and what they will find reflects on the entire community.

Disappointed.