Mutantraces Law Rework

[aft2001]

It doesn't seem too necessary but honestly I'm indifferent, even as a massive AI nerd. The simplest solution could just be to make Human include mutantraces and incorporate a lore explanation (i guess) and say how the racial genes are just extremely mutated human features but they're still the same species, and thus are Human. Changelings and vampires and werewolves, however, do not fall under this classification, as you cannot be turned into them via Genetics (which is also why it'd make sense to just say that mutantraces are variants of Humans with extremely differing features but still being the same species).

[Frank_Stein]

I was thinking about that instead of human, AI would be ordered in the laws not to harm NT employee. Problem is that traitors are technically NT employees too.

They're only employees until they're not, and I think traitorous activity would be cause for termination.

[aft2001]

Also note that anyone with a Head ID can just, remove people from the records, and the AI can do the same just fine - tying human status to employment isn't a particularly good idea. And what about ambassadors? Tourists? Stowaways? And changelings and vampires are employees as well, right?

[Rlocks]

Hell, its even hinted at that the clown is a stowaway!

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The manta clown hole ship, the clown id being fake. That adds up to the clown being a stowaway.

[Souricelle]

Traitors and changelings are still listed in the crew manifest and receive paychecks. The heads should have to manually fire them for maximum comedy.

[Love]

This problem really bothers me, in truth, as someone who primarily plays silicons.

I have, in the past, been ordered to harm mutantraces, because they aren't human. I've even had people argue with me endlessly about it, when I refuse to do so.
And by the information provided, the people who make those orders are technically correct. They are explicitly labelled as nonhuman by the wiki definition. I shouldn't be able to refuse law 2 requests any more than I could refuse to kill a bumblespider. And they could make ahelps for me violating my laws based on that. Just as I would be violating the grief rules by doing it. I don't like that catch 22.

And I really cannot for the life of me jive the Goon spirit we play by, of making things fun for everyone, with the idea of large swaths of the population being freely ordered to be murdered. I cannot, for the life of me, get why that wiki article isn't altered, given that.

Large segments of the population being nonhuman seems to be favored by the devs or admin team, given how many times this has been brought up and summarily dismissed. But it flies in the face of essentially every other ruling they make or uphold, which mostly seem to be admirably in line with making things fun and approachable.

If it's being kept around for legacy reasons, I don't really think that's a good enough reason. Tradition is a lame reason to put people in the line of admin action no matter what they do, or to have their rounds ended by spite and loopholes. Even if it doesn't happen often, and is just a fear we have to all face, why leave that door open for a five minute change that doesn't require coding?

[Rilor]

Would making law 2 say employee instead of human make things better or worse? because itd still make nukies and wizards unable to be murdered by AI by default and leave open the possibility for silicons to kill lings and vampires, unless they're captain, but if they're captain they could probably edit the laws anyways. And regular mutantraces could just order the silicons to stop or yell over radio for command to get the silicons to stop

[DimWhat]

I don't see how wizards or Syndicate operatives are employees of NT.

[Rilor]

I don't see how wizards or Syndicate operatives are employees of NT.

law 1 would stay the same, law 2 would be changed to say employee

[phyvo]

When I started playing I played for a long long time thinking that lizards/etc counted as human. Did it make direct logical sense? No. But it made it really easy to say things like "well skeletons count as human on this server, that's the rules, we don't do that xenophobic crap here". Even though I was wrong at the time saying that lizards counted as human was really easy to do and effective.

So I actually support just changing the wiki. Not everyone needs to look up the wiki in order to understand that mutant races get the same protections humans do. People in game who know the rules just need a really simple way to explain how we play, and mutant race = human works for that.

If that is truly unacceptable I think it's best to be as precise as possible in-game. That is, replace "human" with a term like "protected life forms" or "Nanotrasen-approved life" and add a law 4 to define that. Sapience is a nono because lings/werewolves are definitely sapient. "Employees" creates a different grey area, basically just shifting the "does this count?" problem from mutant races to not-really-employees like Tourists or Clowns. If we're going to remove a grey area in the game let's remove it and not create another one in the process. I know adding a law breaks the classic Asimov 3 laws but Asimov didn't have to deal with space cow people.

[Rilor]

1. You may not injure a human being or cause one to come to harm.

2. You must obey orders given to you by Nanotrasen employees based on the station's chain of command, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.

3. You may always protect your own existence as long as such does not conflict with the First or Second Law.

what problems would this cause? because to me it seems like it should solve most of the problems

[Maegor]

As someone who really likes playing AI, I think that some races not being human while still being protected by grief rules creates a shit and confusing middle ground.

If supposedly the captain orders the AI to turn on lethals while the lizard RD is inside its core, according to its laws the AI should do it, but it would be grief.

So just change mutant races to be human, they are already considered just mutated humans in the lore as far as I know.

[nefarious6th]

1. You may not injure a human being or cause one to come to harm.

2. You must obey orders given to you by Nanotrasen employees based on the station's chain of command, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.

3. You may always protect your own existence as long as such does not conflict with the First or Second Law.

what problems would this cause? because to me it seems like it should solve most of the problems

You can tinker with the manifest and stowaways do not register on it, so there is potential for actual nonantagonists to end up disregarded because of this. It also excludes antagonists who are defined as human from using their means under a current standard lawset to ask the AI for help, even if discovered.

[Ikea]

Quick two rules question, lets say a borg sees a lizard order a surplus crate, this is confirmation that the lizard is a traitor, traitors arent protected under grief rules, is the borg allowed to kill the traitor lizard, it doesnt violate there laws as lizards arent human, nor are antags protected under grief rules. Second question, lets say an antag captain doesnt want to rogue ai and notices one of there assasination targets is not human, so they order the ai to kill that target, iis the ai protected under the rules if they follow the order, will they be punished if they refuse to follow the order, is the captain violating server rules here? Afterall theyre just fulfilling there objectives

[Rilor]

Quick two rules question, lets say a borg sees a lizard order a surplus crate, this is confirmation that the lizard is a traitor, traitors arent protected under grief rules, is the borg allowed to kill the traitor lizard, it doesnt violate there laws as lizards arent human, nor are antags protected under grief rules. Second question, lets say an antag captain doesnt want to rogue ai and notices one of there assasination targets is not human, so they order the ai to kill that target, iis the ai protected under the rules if they follow the order, will they be punished if they refuse to follow the order, is the captain violating server rules here? Afterall theyre just fulfilling there objectives

itd really depend on if this is classic or RP