Discussion Thread: direct commits of balance changes without player input

[Rlocks]

I got the feeling it's the case aswell, plus, we probably shouldn't balance things around secrets due to assholes like the person leaking every secret problem thing they can.

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Since they likely will find out whatever changes that are made, and hell, I got a small idea that might help lower their ability to leak them, I heard they have alot of alts on the discord, so we player lock the spoiler channel aswell as keeping the spoiler role requirement, plus, not giving player lit to each person who asks. Might help prevent leaks as much, especially if the obnoxious stuff is reworked to be harder to get.

[zjdtmkhzt]

If a secret is unbalanced, it should be adjusted to be balanced, even if not a lot of people are aware of it.
Nitroglycerine as a deathchem was basically unavoidable for the victim, and it could be easily made without really leaving the chemistry lab, so it makes sense that it was removed.
And propellant was just weird mechanically, it really felt like something that was coded back when our coders were just not experienced enough to code something that models it better, like newsmoke. (On top of causing loads of balancing issues.)

[UrsulaMejor]

I got the feeling it's the case aswell, plus, we probably shouldn't balance things around secrets due to assholes like the person leaking every secret problem thing they can.

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Since they likely will find out whatever changes that are made, and hell, I got a small idea that might help lower their ability to leak them, I heard they have alot of alts on the discord, so we player lock the spoiler channel aswell as keeping the spoiler role requirement, plus, not giving player lit to each person who asks. Might help prevent leaks as much, especially if the obnoxious stuff is reworked to be harder to get.

"leaks" aren't really against the rules. Technically, nothing against the rules is happening here.

[Mouse]

I got the feeling it's the case aswell, plus, we probably shouldn't balance things around secrets due to assholes like the person leaking every secret problem thing they can.

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Since they likely will find out whatever changes that are made, and hell, I got a small idea that might help lower their ability to leak them, I heard they have alot of alts on the discord, so we player lock the spoiler channel aswell as keeping the spoiler role requirement, plus, not giving player lit to each person who asks. Might help prevent leaks as much, especially if the obnoxious stuff is reworked to be harder to get.

"leaks" aren't really against the rules. Technically, nothing against the rules is happening here.

I don't know how much of a problem this unnamed person is actually causing, but if it is a significant problem I could have sworn the rules did have a clause for people who weren't actually breaking any rules but nevertheless were making the game worse for everyone.

[Mordent]

Deleted some posts that were immediately before this one that were getting very off-topic. If you think your post was deleted in error feel free to reach out.

[Studenterhue]

To put things back on track, the narrative that one person/group (ab)using a feature is to blame for nitroglycerin and aerosol changes (or really any change) is inaccurate. It's an easy narrative to latch on to, but it's incorrect.  It ignores the long history of adjustments and fixes made in an attempt to balance these features and focuses too much on the symptom (people abusing a feature's flaw) than the disease (a flaw in the feature). Moreover, it sort of implies nitroglycerin and aerosol's problems could be solved by driving certain people out rather than fixing the flaws in these features or gutting them out entirely.

(That said, I still believe we still should punish people who abuse exploits or promote such, especially if they make no attempt to fix things and/or actually make problems worse. But here the idea is to neutralize the harm caused by rules violations, not to fix the game's balance)

I think aft and cybertripping made extremely good points earlier: player feedback comes in a variety of forms. Pull requests and official feedback threads are definitely useful, but it's not the only way our devs get feedback and direction. As aft's said, you can learn a lot from just listening to conversations, even if they're casual discussion not meant to function as feedback, whether its players-to-players, players-to-admins, whatever. Same goes for watching others play (whether through streams, youtube videos, observing, etc.) or playing oneself. For example, MBC once watched a video of a newbie playing Goonstation and noticed how they were really confused that when more flames appeared on their sprite after trying to stop-drop-and-roll, and that partly motivated kyle to change how burning works. I know this idea has been said over and over before, but I think it's important and worth repeating.

[Chayot]

While I understand and concede, it's nice to have transparency and discussion, I find it befitting to endow the Development team with the trust they're owed.
They were chosen and allowed to be among the Devs because presumably they're skilled, well-reported upon and overall trustworthy.
In that regard, they should continue to be entrusted with the responsibilities and advantages that come with being a Developer.

If a change really is that noticeably bad, it can just as easily be tweaked or removed altogether.

I will add, I feel your point of making drunkenness a painkiller or provide damage reduction as opposed to outright deflection has merit.
Wouldn't it be fine to simply suggest this to the Dev who made the change as opposed to feeling left out of the decision making process?

[palpetinus]

I keep noticing this trend here that "devs don't owe the players anything", this notion that unless something is owed, it won't be provided. I can only partially agree with that.

A gas station employee doesn't owe you an answer if you ask for advice on which wipers to buy, but they'll provide that advice anyway.
A store clerk (or owner) doesn't owe you a happy smile, a thank you and maybe even help packing all the groceris, but most would do it anyway.
Even right here, an admin doesn't owe you an explanation on why you were banned for shouting gamer words in medbay, you broke a rule so they could just ban you, leave it at that, enjoy the perma.

The difference is between being a robot that doesn't engage with fellow people and a fun, engaging person that loves what they do and loves communicating with people.
Sure, is it fine to not "go the extra mile" and only provide the bare minimum? Sure, it's fine. But I know what I'd rather prefer.

[Technature]

While I do kind of agree with you, I would like to point out that Gas Station Attendants and Store Clerks are literally paid to do multiple things, including to do their best to help you.  They do, to an extent, owe it to you (even if the only reason they owe it to you is because the company says they do, they still do).

Simply put, if they weren't nice and smiling, they wouldn't be there for long.  Admins just have to not be assholes for the most part.

[Souricelle]

Goonstation isn't a mcdonalds or whatever and even if you were paying the coders, they still wouldn't owe you anything. These are volunteers being extremely generous with their time and skills.

[ZeWaka]

A gas station employee doesn't owe you an answer if you ask for advice on which wipers to buy, but they'll provide that advice anyway.

The difference is between being a robot that doesn't engage with fellow people and a fun, engaging person that loves what they do and loves communicating with people.
Sure, is it fine to not "go the extra mile" and only provide the bare minimum? Sure, it's fine. But I know what I'd rather prefer.

Gas station employees are paid. I am not. I love coding and helping people learn how to code for this fart simulator.
Therefore, I try and spend my time doing the things I love, not consulting endless amounts of people.
So, if you prefer me to "go the extra mile," here's how to pay me (less than the gas station worker would get! wow! what a deal!): https://github.com/sponsors/ZeWaka

[Mordent]

I will personally and out of my own pocket refund anyone the $0.00 they are owed if we fail to meet their expectations. Please send a stamped, self addressed envelope to 42069 Butt St., Fartsville, New Jersey and I'll send you the check. Or maybe I won't, that still takes time I'm not being paid for, lol.

[Camryn]

Clearly the solution is to buy out the coders and make them beholden to our whims.


I'll start working on the ponzi scheme to fund this.

[THISISANICEGAME]

I demand to know where my spacebux are going!! "Parallax in 2 weeks" they said.

[kyle2143]

I was referring to weeks on PLUTO. This is a SPACE game after all. Duh!