[MERGED PR] Pretty heavily reduced effectiveness of cyborg shields

[Mouse]

Sweet Jesus this is needed.

[KikiMofo]

I thought we just had a PR about nerfing cyborg shields. Did that not fix it?

[Mordent]

Fix what?

[KikiMofo]

About borg shields being too strong or something.
Oh wait no. Just went back to check. It wasn't a PR it was just a complaint.
https://forum.ss13.co/showthread.php?tid=16133
So yeah this PR should fix what they were complaining about probably.

[github_bot]

PULL REQUEST DETAILS



[BALANCE][BUG][INPUT WANTED]

About the PR

Rebalances cyborg shields to be much less of an "I win" button.

They now reduce damage taken by melee attacks by 4 points (at a cost of 100 power per point). Previously they reduced damage by 50% and then ignored it if 4 or less, so any attacks that did 8 damage or less were mitigated entirely). This means that basically everything will be more effective against them than previously. A circular saw aiming at the head of a standard cyborg destroys them in 44 hits with the shield, 22 without (previously, as saws do 8 damage, they did no *actual* damage against the cyborg).

For gunshots, the projectile reflecting/overheat mechanic was removed. They do the same damage reduction as for melee attacks above (making them typically *much* less effective against bullets as most of them are higher-damage weapons). A Sirius assault rifle firing at the head of a standard cyborg destroys them in 11 shots with the shield, 8 without.

Bullet-code had a bug where physical shields would block all damage if they were on at all (regardless of their overheat status). Overheating is no longer a thing (and reflection is no longer a thing), so bullets are now much more effective against cyborgs with shield (whereas before they were completely useless, and potentially dangerous to yourself!)

Physical shields no longer provide immunity against blob attacks (reducing damage taken, still, but cyborgs should be much more careful around blobs).

Drain rate of the force shield has been dropped from 250 to 100.

This does not fix the bug about the shield upgrade effect showing/not showing.

Why's this needed?

- The bug with projectiles that weren't reflected not doing any damage at all is bad, and should be fixed whether the greater PR is fixed or not.
- Cyborgs with this upgrade are much more mortal now, with it more increasing durability rather than making you mostly invincible. This should encourage people to not rely on it entirely and instead consider using heavier parts.

Changelog

Code:

changelog
(u)Mordent
(*)Cyborg shield upgrades have been pretty heavily reduced in effectiveness, especially against higher-damage weapons. They no longer reflect projectiles.
(*)Drain rate of cyborg force shield upgrade reduced by 60% (250 to 100)

PULL REQUEST DETAILS

[Mordent]

For transparency or whatever, after a bit more testing I bumped the cell drain per damage point reduced to 100 (from where I'd put it originally at 50). This means up to 400 per hit (and most hits will be doing 400).

Before this change, a circular saw could be used against a cyborg until the cell drained. Now it takes 44 hits to destroy a standard cyborg head (22 without the shield). Doing so drains a 15,000 capacity cell (and then some).

Not going to go through and test every gun/part combo, but the Sirius assault rifle now destroys a standard cyborg head in 11 shots with the shield on (compared to never before due to a bug), as opposed to 8 without the shield.

Hopefully this gives some good ideas as to rough scaling with/without the shield. They are definitely no longer practically (or actually, depending on what you were attacking them with) invincible.

---

(Apologies for formatting/post ordering here, the GitHub actions bot was being weird with creating threads.)

[Zafhset]

Was this not already nerfed? My experience with using shields lately is that they only absorbed part of the damage and no longer reflected shots/projectiles (killed by a shotgun pod while shields were active)

I don't use shields enough to say for certain, so perhaps others who use it more regularly can share whether this is true.

[Mordent]

Yes, there was some nerf that was applied, specifically this commit.

I believe that that commit has some bugs in it that made it not behave as intended. Most notably: even if shots weren't reflected due to a shield overheating from multiple attacks in a short time frame, they still did no damage. Blobs still did no damage to shielded cyborgs (they did overheat the shield, but overheating the shield did not affect that blobs did no damage to them).

I would suggest that your observation of being killed by a shotgun pod while shields were active was either due to your shields not actually being active (the visual appearance of your shields does not accurately reflect your shield state) or your power cell running out (and this the shield being powered down, but also possibly still not updating the appearance of the shield).

[Mr. Green]

I found out about this PR through the changelog yesterday. Since i'm not very active on the forums, i only found this thread afterwards. Apologies for only responding after it got merged. I also tried writing a response yesterday, but both drafts got a bit out of hand lengthwise.

While reading the PR, this thread and the complaint thread that was linked in it, i get the feeling there is some misunderstanding going around when it comes to borg combat in general, and the shields specifically. While some complaints that were mentioned are completely valid, some others seemed to be based on inaccurate information, or a lack of borg perspective. I personally believe that while obviously well intentioned, this PR will not have the intended result, will significantly nerf arguably the only viable defensive option borg currently have, and possibly even have some unintended and unwanted side effects.

For clarity's sake i will split the shields up into three elements and discuss those separately.

First of all there is the bug that causes shields to not visually update properly. I personally believe this is a major cause of issues and frustration when it comes to the shields. It adds an unfair element to them. Having a taser reflect from a shielded borg could just be a learning moment, but since it so often doesn't show while active, even players that would know better have no way of telling whether the shields are on or off. The fact that this bug has been around for a long time, and the fact this PR specifically mentioned not fixing it either, does lead me to believe this bug might not be easily fixable.

Secondly, there is the reflection ability that comes with the shields. From what i can gather, these were intended to have a overheat mechanic which didn't work properly due to a bug. As a result they are able to reflect full sprays of nukie weapons, which i think is obviously overpowered, especially since it was never intended to work like that in the first place. That being said, i think fully removing the reflection ability is throwing out the baby with the bathwater. While it might be overpowered in some contexts, which i think should indeed be remedied, it also adds a lot of flavor to the game. In my opinion, borg can often be treated quite poorly with relative impunity. Them having a tool that allows for some minor, in many cases non harmful payback, certainly has its place. Apart from that, reflecting a pulse rival shot back to someone is just very funny. Furthermore the reflection could serve as an additional (assuming the visuals update properly) indicator that the shields are on. This would make it more of a deterrent.

Then finally we have the damage mitigation the shields provide. My personal experience using the shields lines up perfectly with the numbers described in the PR when it comes to melee mitigation. Low damage melee weapons dont do damage, they just drain power, but any weapon that does enough damage does get through on top of draining power. This might sound very strong, but in practice this has quite a few limitations. The threshold being where it is means that there are plenty of weapons that do work that are easy to come by. Sec can use their batons, but any extinguisher will do the trick too. I'm not sure on the exact math of how much damage comes through, what i do know is that in practice either of those weapons will damage my head 10% with shields on. So to compare, while those 10 hits could destroy a fully upgraded light borg, an unarmored human would have just entered crit from those same hits. This to me does not seem very overpowered. When it comes to ranged mitigation, i indeed don't recall the heat shield ever letting any damage come through, although stuns do go through. but i also seem to recall instances where physical projectiles did actually do damage, altho none of them very recent, so i could be off on that, or it could just be outdated. While this means that fighting shielded borg with ranged weapons isn't a viable option, in my opinion this doesn't necessarily have to be an issue. There are plenty of other scenarios in which a certain approach is way more viable than another. You wouldn't (or shouldn't) use a baton to try to stun someone with a csaber, if you have a taser available to you.

In my opinion there are already plenty of ways out there to counter borg. AI laws, killswitch, flashes and debraining to name a few, are all very effective tools. In the current meta unupgraded borg are ridiculously easy to take out, regardless of how heavy they are. A single flash will do the trick most of the time. This incentivizes upgrade use. The current meta for upgraded borg is all about charge management. Since if you go upgraded, you will most likely also get a teleport upgrade, actually getting destroyed is unlikely, as long as you manage your charge properly. There is also the recovery upgrade, arguably the most important upgrade, which removes stuns at the cost of a large chunk of charge. People that know how to properly combat an upgraded borg, know that it's all about draining the borg (if they dont have the option to debrain), not destroying them. A skilled borg will always bail out before they get destroyed and draining borg is way easier to do than damaging them. The PR also mentions that these changes will hopefully encourage people to consider using heavier parts. While i would also love to see more varied borg types around, the current way borg combat works makes the heavier types completely unviable. Since borg combat revolves so much about being fast, most notably to be able to bail fast. Going standard is already risky, any heavier model is simply not an option.

In conclusion, while i believe the shields certainly need some changes, i think that in a lot of regards the shields are actually very well balanced, and i do not believe it is an "I win" button by any stretch of the imagination. If a skilled, fully upgraded borg has an opponent against them that knows what they doing, i would even argue the borg is the underdog. I think this PR might significantly sideline borgs when it comes to direct combat, which in return could lead to an increase in hit and run style attacks, like chemmixes and and plasmafires, which i doubt is what anyone wants. I would much prefer if instead some alternative solutions could be found.

Suggestions:

• If possible, fix the shield sprite not updating.
  

• Nerf the reflection ability, so it no longer is weaponizable, while leaving the more funny and harmless side of it intact. A possible way to fix this could be to give the reflection a cooldown. Have it reflect the first projectile in a spray, but then not reflect anything for a certain amount of time.
  

• If the sprite update bug isn't fixable, it might be an option to split the reflection ability into its own seperate upgrade. Assuming the same bug would not allow this to have an accurate sprite either, turning it into an active ability, similar to how a sec barrier works, could maybe be an option.
  

• Assuming people don't share my opinion that ranged damage immunity is not an issue due to there being plenty of other ways to counter borg, please carefully consider how this should be balanced. The PR mentions ranged mitigation being the same as melee, but in general ranged attacks do more damage and allow you to attack way faster than in melee. Even tasers damage borg, so this would mean security basicly has phasers that also stun, even while shielded, to use against borg.
  

• Leave the original values for melee, as in my experience the melee side was actually very well balanced already, and would sooner need a buff than a nerf.
  

• If people do believe the shields need a nerf when it comes to melee damage mitigation, would it be possible to do this in a way that aligns more with the current borg combat meta? Increasing the charge cost is the first thing that comes to mind in this regard.
  

• If having more different types of borg around is a goal, it could be a good idea to make them more viable, to incentivize their use. Buffing their speed, or alternatively the effect a speed upgrade has on them, could possibly be a good starting point for this.
  

• Currently it seems to be the case that if a borg's head gets destroyed, this also destroys the brain. Since it's good practice to target the head, this often means that if a borg does die, they have no way to get back into the round. Seeing how borg are meant to switch allegiances by design, this has always seemed odd to me. Changing this could make it so that dying as a borg is less of an issue you would want to avoid at all cost, thereby making any changes that do make them more vulnerable less drastic.
  

---

Imagine writing such a long post and still forgetting something.

Blob!

When it comes to blob i feel like in the past it was very well balanced, to the point where a skilled upgraded borg and a skilled blob would often end up in a stalemate situation, where neither could actually kill the other. I'm talking more than a year ago tho. Since i took a break at some point, i'm not exactly sure when this got changed, but after i came back (around the start of this year), this seemed to have changed a lot. My first time trying to fight a blob after my break i basicly got insta-killed, and ever since then i've basicly stayed back healing the people actually fighting the blob. Due to this cautious approach i do not have a lot of recent experience fighting blob, but what little experience i do have leads my to believe a nerf is certainly not needed in that regard either.

[Mordent]

Not got time to respond to the whole thing above right now, but picking 2 bits:

Shielded cyborgs were completely immune to blob damage before. They could do whatever with compete impunity while their shield was active. Given that a blob isn't exactly able to chase you, this meant a cyborg could do whatever and leave when their charge got low. That this wasn't abused more is likely due to relative obscurity.

Re: light cyborgs take only ten hits in the head with a fire extinguisher to destroy, they do 10 damage. Light cyborg heads have 50 health. Without a shield 5 hits would destroy the head. With a shield before the change it half the damage (and if that meant less than 4 would negate it entirely), so 10 hits (doing 5 damage each). Each hit now would do 10-4=6 damage (so 8 hits).

A standard head has 175 health (18 hits unshielded, 35 hits before change, 29 hits after change). Consider using a standard head.

---

Re: different types of borg more viable, see: https://github.com/goonstation/goonstation/pull/4779

[Mordent]

... will significantly nerf arguably the only viable defensive option borg currently have, and possibly even have some unintended and unwanted side effects.

Removing themselves from the situation is the best defensive option they have, and cyborgs can do this easily with a) light cyborgs being faster than humans, b) being able to bolt doors with a single click, c) all access (so being able to go somewhere many humans cannot follow easily), d) speed upgrade for a quick getaway, e) being able to go out into space, f) teleport upgrade...

The shield upgrade still increases a cyborg's effective durability, and while it absolutely is a significant nerf, many of its previous effects seemed to be unintended or oversights. I would rather balance around the "new" shield than revert and re-introduce the bugs.

If possible, fix the shield sprite not updating.

That was next on my list. Done.

Assuming people don't share my opinion that ranged damage immunity is not an issue due to there being plenty of other ways to counter borg, please carefully consider how this should be balanced. The PR mentions ranged mitigation being the same as melee, but in general ranged attacks do more damage and allow you to attack way faster than in melee. Even tasers damage borg, so this would mean security basicly has phasers that also stun, even while shielded, to use against borg.

Intentional. Obviously willing to discuss balance of this. I would prefer to have to improve the shield a bit for some places it's potentially lacking in what is relatively balanced for it to be able to do rather than under-nerf and not really "solve" anything. As a counterpoint to above: consider that humans are subject to the above and if you don't have security's shield then also die/get stunned very quickly.

Leave the original values for melee, as in my experience the melee side was actually very well balanced already, and would sooner need a buff than a nerf.

Disagree. It's also not a significant change in terms of number of attacks needed, and means that some things can actually be used to harm cyborgs now (circular saws and rolling pins being two notable fairly common melee weapons), though they'll take a good bit to actually do significant damage. I stand by my earlier statement: if you want to survive more hits, don't use light parts. Using a standard head instead of a light one (and keeping otherwise the same) makes light cyborgs still faster than humans and increases your head's durability by 3.5x.

If people do believe the shields need a nerf when it comes to melee damage mitigation, would it be possible to do this in a way that aligns more with the current borg combat meta? Increasing the charge cost is the first thing that comes to mind in this regard.

The charge cost before was actually (generally) steeper, as it would use charge based on the amount of damage the attack did multiplied by 50 (so a fire extinguisher would drain 500 per whack). Now it's capped at 100 per damage actually blocked (so up to 400). In some cases of lower damage weapons the new drain will be higher, sure, but it should at least be a little easier to manage. 400 charge per hit is nothing to sneeze at (38 hits will drain a 15k cell, ignoring the running cost), and it having a ceiling gives cyborgs a chance to run after they take a few hits still.

Currently it seems to be the case that if a borg's head gets destroyed, this also destroys the brain. Since it's good practice to target the head, this often means that if a borg does die, they have no way to get back into the round. Seeing how borg are meant to switch allegiances by design, this has always seemed odd to me. Changing this could make it so that dying as a borg is less of an issue you would want to avoid at all cost, thereby making any changes that do make them more vulnerable less drastic.

I would hope that the meta might change to actually use the stronger heads (especially with cyborg treads reducing the effective weight of heavier heads).

• A human has a movement delay of 1.5.
  
• A cyborg with light arms, light legs, and a light head (50 health) has a movement delay of 1.0.
  
• A cyborg with light arms, light legs, and a standard head (175 health) has a movement delay of 1.2.
  
• A cyborg with standard arms, standard legs, and a standard head (175 health) has a movement delay of 2.0.
  
• A cyborg with light arms, treads, and a light head (50 health) has a movement delay of 0.9
  
• A cyborg with light arms, treads, and a standard head (175 health) has a movement delay of 1.1
  
• A cyborg with light arms, treads, and a sturdy head (225 health) now has a movement delay of ~1.17.
  
• A cyborg with light arms, treads, and a heavy head (350 health) now has a movement delay of ~1.23.
  

All of the above are ignoring having a spritz of oil (which massively speeds them up), or using a speed upgrade (ditto).

There are more changes to come to make the heavier parts (esp. arms) more desirable. Cyborgs can be zippy, fragile things or slower (but if built properly nowhere near as slow as before) tanky things.

Essentially: I'd like to let the shield upgrade nerf stand as-is for now, and we can look into rebalancing once it's been felt out a bit more and people have worked out how to work around it.

[Mr. Green]

Thanks for the indepth reaction. The shield nerf kinda scared me a little, but it's clear to me now that this was far from done in a vacuum.

Essentially: I'd like to let the shield upgrade nerf stand as-is for now, and we can look into rebalancing once it's been felt out a bit more and people have worked out how to work around it.

To start with the note you ended on, i can totally get behind this. Since borg seem to be heavily worked on right now, i think seeing what the new meta will actually be like, is a good idea, like you said. While there are still a few things i'm slightly worried about (a notable example being tasers functioning as stun phasers), for now i will just wait and see.

Re: different types of borg more viable, see: https://github.com/goonstation/goonstation/pull/4779

I would hope that the meta might change to actually use the stronger heads (especially with cyborg treads reducing the effective weight of heavier heads).

I believe this change has a great chance of changing the meta in a possitive way. I'm allready considering what my tanky borg is gonna be like.

There are more changes to come to make the heavier parts (esp. arms) more desirable.

Looking forward to it!

Currently it seems to be the case that if a borg's head gets destroyed, this also destroys the brain. Since it's good practice to target the head, this often means that if a borg does die, they have no way to get back into the round. Seeing how borg are meant to switch allegiances by design, this has always seemed odd to me. Changing this could make it so that dying as a borg is less of an issue you would want to avoid at all cost, thereby making any changes that do make them more vulnerable less drastic.

I would hope that the meta might change to actually use the stronger heads (especially with cyborg treads reducing the effective weight of heavier heads).

I believe these changes will indeed make stronger heads more viable. However, this still leaves me with the question why borg brains get destroyed when the head does in the first place. Given that borg can literally be made to drop everything and attack people, even if they dont want to, this just doesn't make sense to me. Changing it so that the brain just pops out instead, would make your chances of getting repaired way more comparable to the changes of a human getting cloned, especially since like i said before, targeting the head is just good practice. And if some borg went out of their way to be a shitter, you can always still eat their brain.

Looking forward to seeing the rest of the upcoming changes. Thanks for all the work you put in. I'm not a coder by any stretch of the imagination, so i wont be able to help in that regard, but if it's ever helpful to have someone help with some testing or something, i'd be more than happy to help out.

[coolvape]

I want to second Mr Green's point about borg brains being destroyed. Borgs who die and have their brains pop out are already less likely to have their brains shoved in a new body than a human is to be cloned, the current state where a borg's brain can be utterly annihilated like that is not super fun for borg players, especially when humans don't gib in comparable scenarios - and there's no way to get a borg brain scanned so you can clone/make another. The scenario that comes to mind especially for this is the wizard's fireball spell, which will one hit KO a light cyborg(what all roundstart cyborgs are!) on a direct hit, immediately annihilating their head and brain and leaving them dead for the rest of the round with essentially no counterplay.



I'm super excited about the speed changes - heavy borgs before, being slow, were physically painful to play as it took ages to get anywhere on the map. This will make playing heavier borg models a lot more tolerable.

[Mouse]

Destroying a borg head is guaranteed to drop the brain as of a year or so ago, IIRC.

[Mordent]

Destroying a borg head is guaranteed to drop the brain as of a year or so ago, IIRC.

Correct. If this doesn't seem to be the case please take note when it happens next and bug report with details of how you died. It's likely that some methods of being destroyed don't go via this method or whatever.