Discussion Thread: direct commits of balance changes without player input

[Drewmajor11]

Honestly?  If you don't like it so badly?

Make a server.

If Goonstation is gonna die because...uh, what is it now...

Change being drunk to only randomly shrug off punches, not item attacks

...a drunk debuff?

For the love of...

If Goonstation is gonna die because of a drunk debuff, have a server up and running for when players leave in droves over it.

With how shit the game industry can get and how little effort are put into $60 $70 games now?  You can't be fucking serious.

With how little effort are put into $70 games that are plagued with every single little feature being jammed behind a paywall, I'm happy that there's something that has so much love and care put into it that is available to me for the ever low extra cost of absolutely nothing.

You don't have to be happy with every little change (I'm not, after all), and I know this isn't the only thing we're talking about, but is opposing a debuff to something that people rarely use (as mentioned by the OP) really going to be the hill you die on?  Is this really gonna be the "No don't do that you're gonna kill the server" thing?

The entire point is that this keeps happening with multiple different things, not this debuff specifically. It's just an example of a larger problem.

[Technature]

Honestly?  If you don't like it so badly?

Make a server.

If Goonstation is gonna die because...uh, what is it now...

Change being drunk to only randomly shrug off punches, not item attacks

...a drunk debuff?

For the love of...

If Goonstation is gonna die because of a drunk debuff, have a server up and running for when players leave in droves over it.

With how shit the game industry can get and how little effort are put into $60 $70 games now?  You can't be fucking serious.

With how little effort are put into $70 games that are plagued with every single little feature being jammed behind a paywall, I'm happy that there's something that has so much love and care put into it that is available to me for the ever low extra cost of absolutely nothing.

You don't have to be happy with every little change (I'm not, after all), and I know this isn't the only thing we're talking about, but is opposing a debuff to something that people rarely use (as mentioned by the OP) really going to be the hill you die on?  Is this really gonna be the "No don't do that you're gonna kill the server" thing?

The entire point is that this keeps happening with multiple different things, not this debuff specifically. It's just an example of a larger problem.

Honestly?  If you don't like it so badly?

Make a server.

[subjectparfait]

Honestly?  If you don't like it so badly?

Make a server.

If Goonstation is gonna die because...uh, what is it now...

Change being drunk to only randomly shrug off punches, not item attacks

...a drunk debuff?

For the love of...

If Goonstation is gonna die because of a drunk debuff, have a server up and running for when players leave in droves over it.

With how shit the game industry can get and how little effort are put into $60 $70 games now?  You can't be fucking serious.

With how little effort are put into $70 games that are plagued with every single little feature being jammed behind a paywall, I'm happy that there's something that has so much love and care put into it that is available to me for the ever low extra cost of absolutely nothing.

You don't have to be happy with every little change (I'm not, after all), and I know this isn't the only thing we're talking about, but is opposing a debuff to something that people rarely use (as mentioned by the OP) really going to be the hill you die on?  Is this really gonna be the "No don't do that you're gonna kill the server" thing?

bet

[Superlagg]

I understand that this is, after all, your game, and we're just here using the things you've made for our own entertainment. But, while you don't need to consider player satisfaction in development, I think it's a good thing to practice (even if I haven't really done that myself). It's definitely something players appreciate, even if it doesn't lead to any tangible benefit. There's no real reason to be considerate of your players' feelings, donations and population will likely increase regardless, it's just the considerate thing to do.

I suppose the same could be said the other way around, us not being considerate of what you want in this game, and it'd be completely correct. I feel like there's been a fairly decent balance of managing that back-and-forth for the most part, just that it feels like it's been tipping out of our favor.

[Mordent]

To bring the tone back a bit: devs don't have to ask for, take into account, or listen to player feedback. That doesn't mean they never do, it just means they don't have to.

For every change there will be some percentage of people who do not like it, some percentage who like it, some percentage who don't have a strong opinion, and some percentage unaware that the change ever happened.

The changelog is good and is meant to communicate changes to the players. It doesn't always get used. I think wanting it to be used more is a reasonable desire, and one that could viably be acted upon if we think it's worth the extra effort.

To loop back on my earlier post with more substance rather than an off hand comment: before open source even less changes were announced in the changelog, and there was significantly less grumping about "significant" changes being made. You now have a window into the game to see the changes via looking at the public repo.

We've (okay, ZeWaka and I think it was Pali?) put a lot of time into making the changelog automation better as part of open sourcing, reducing the effort required to add changelog entries as part of the PR process and to give the changelogs more detail via icons and whatnot.

Essentially: we are at probably the most transparent we've been with regards to changes developers make to the game. I am personally of the opinion that not every change needs a changelog entry - it would just drown out the more important ones with noise - but I could see people wanting every change added to the minor changes panels.

Realistically, it's unlikely to happen. The more you're a slave to the process the more this becomes a job rather than a hobby, and my tax returns don't show anything about SS13 on them. Developers are selected based on a nebulous set of criteria, but "make game better" is probably pretty universally one of them.

The staff trust devs to make good changes and that is why they are able to make changes directly, without even internal oversight for the most part. Sometimes a change is contentious and we try to resolve that internally. Sometimes a change isn't well received by the players at large (there's always a couple people who don't like basically every change), and follow-up changes can and do take that into account.

You are welcome (and encouraged) to give feedback on changes. In order for many of us to enjoy doing what we do we're not going to broadcast every little change to be scrutinized and yelled about. It isn't worth it for us, and while listening to player feedback is healthy, so is having devs able to make small tweaks to make the game better (in their opinion) without being subject to an inquisition.

[Frank_Stein]

Maybe wait a week or two after a change to see how it actually effects on your gameplay, collect real practical data, and then make an informed thread about why you think the change does or doesn't add to the overall experience.

[Cal]

I think it's totally ok to complain, be upset, and give feedback. It's -NOT- okay to start slinging insults at the devs for things they push.

Play with it for a bit and give genuine feedback, not kneejerk responses. I myself am guilty of this regarding the port-a-sci until I realized that it truly doesn't matter very much.

Honestly, the op reads like "Oh I used this tactic to avoid a whopping 40% of attacks with damage up to a lit welder(!!!!!!) because I took a perk that made me not get downsides from being drunk, now that was nerfed??"

[Varali]

I can understand the feelings of something you enjoyed being removed without a word, but there's better ways to handle the removal than this. I haven't been with Goonstation for years, but I've been around long enough to guarantee you that they do a damn good job of being transparent right now, much better than a lot of games, even triple A titles. As with any open source project, you're free to look through everything they do as much as you please, but the simple rule is that they really don't owe you an explanation for every change, it's exhausting and honestly insulting to demand such a thing.

If you truly disagree with a change, make an informed and constructive thread discussing it, not demanding they PR every little change. Having to PR everything and write up changelog entries and debate it all would massively slow down work and burn out the developers even more than already. At the end of the day, developers and admins are not here for a paycheck, but because they're passionate and want to make Goonstation a better place, and the developers are trusted with the tools to make that happen.

[subjectparfait]

I think it's totally ok to complain, be upset, and give feedback. It's -NOT- okay to start slinging insults at the devs for things they push.

Play with it for a bit and give genuine feedback, not kneejerk responses. I myself am guilty of this regarding the port-a-sci until I realized that it truly doesn't matter very much.

Honestly, the op reads like "Oh I used this tactic to avoid a whopping 40% of attacks with damage up to a lit welder(!!!!!!) because I took a perk that made me not get downsides from being drunk, now that was nerfed??"

i didnt see anyone insulting the devs unless you count not liking their work as insulting

[Cal]

i didnt see anyone insulting the devs unless you count not liking their work as insulting

Not in this thread I guess, but I have seen some rude shit on Discord.

[subjectparfait]

i didnt see anyone insulting the devs unless you count not liking their work as insulting

Not in this thread I guess, but I have seen some rude shit on Discord.

sad

[kyle2143]

I've been playing this game a long time, since 2011, and I've been a developer here since like 2018 or 2019 or something; and I feel pretty strongly that we, as a development team, have never been more transparent or more accepting of player feedback and contributions than we are now.

Prior to last year when we open sourced much of our code base due to code leaks, when we had only a small developer team and a small community of non-affiliated contributors; I'd say that about 60% (minimum) of all changes made were undocumented. And the main way developers collected feedback was on the forums here, with dozens of suggestions posts made for every one that was acted on by a developer.

Now, most changes added to the game by devs is done transparently in the open source repository of code, and everyone can see exactly any change made if they care to comb through the git history. I feel like this has warped player perceptions into thinking we make warrantless changes devoid of any thought or internal discussion simply because they can now see everything. When before they could see only what a developer explicitly states.

When we went open source, some people got the impression that we were changing our whole development workflow so as to be beholden to community input on every decision. This is not the case, and was never planned. That's not to say that we ignore player feedback, but the final decisions on changes and game direction rest with the developers. That's how software development works everywhere. You try to make a good product and be accomidating where you can, but often times, people are averse to change and you'll find someone somewhere who dislikes any change, if not brand new feature.

I don't like every change made by every other developer, certainly there are similar feelings towards my changes at times. Usually my initial reaction upon seeing a change to something I like is to be annoyed or upset before thinking to give it a chance. And it's only after I give it a chance that I find that I might be okay with that change if not actually come to like it or see its value.

[Carbadox]

I dont think Kyle could put it any better.

[Froggit_Dogget]

I dont think Kyle could put it any better.

yea i agree, we need a way to rate individual posts in a thread, like we can do with threads.

[KikiMofo]

I've been playing about as long as Kyle and I agree with him. Back then the coders really didn't tell you SHIT when they added or did some change. People should be happy how open the code discussion is now. Remember Goonstation use to be 100% closed source and you couldn't see into the code AT ALL till it was leaked.