Porta sci program removal thread

[Tarmunora]

reposting from discord, since people there were getting hung up on adventure-zone stuff since the intent behind the change was not necessarily made clear:
Main reasons were:
- detrivialize/encourage-proactiveness-in getting out of sticky situations (can't just ask AI for the portasci[remote] when stuck)
- Reinforce that the port-a-sci is the RD's toy, in the same way that the NT syringe gun is the MD's, or the RCD-C is the CE's

[nefarious6th]

Thanks for the clarification.

Two thoughts:

Would've liked to have seen this as a PR, even if the intent was to push it anyways, at least to have an awareness this was going to happen before it did.

PSci being the RD's toy doesn't mean a lot or make a lot of sense to me; it's a remote-based transport unit like the PMed (not the MDir's toy), the NanoMed (not the MDir's toy), and the PBrig (not the HOS's toy). There's ways for the relevant people in the department those tools are in to be able to access those items through PDA. The PBrig, PMed, and NanoMed all recall to a home turf tile in the respective departments accessible by anyone in those departmemts. So too does the PSci.

The RD doesn't really have a unique toy for themselves. This is true! I think making one versus trying to re-mold the PSci into that would've been preferable.

[Mrprogamer96]

Ultimately I think the back lash might have come from something that I seen a lot of in my life, miscommunication. I only found out about this in game by the RD asking for me to make more remotes and most people were not aware this had happened.

[Bimbly]

reposting from discord, since people there were getting hung up on adventure-zone stuff since the intent behind the change was not necessarily made clear:
Main reasons were:
- detrivialize/encourage-proactiveness-in getting out of sticky situations (can't just ask AI for the portasci[remote] when stuck)
- Reinforce that the port-a-sci is the RD's toy, in the same way that the NT syringe gun is the MD's, or the RCD-C is the CE's

Thanks for the clarification.

Two thoughts:

Would've liked to have seen this as a PR, even if the intent was to push it anyways, at least to have an awareness this was going to happen before it did.

PSci being the RD's toy doesn't mean a lot or make a lot of sense to me; it's a remote-based transport unit like the PMed (not the MDir's toy), the NanoMed (not the MDir's toy), and the PBrig (not the HOS's toy). There's ways for the relevant people in the department those tools are in to be able to access those items through PDA. The PBrig, PMed, and NanoMed all recall to a home turf tile in the respective departments accessible by anyone in those departmemts. So too does the PSci.

The RD doesn't really have a unique toy for themselves. This is true! I think making one versus trying to re-mold the PSci into that would've been preferable.

I agree detrivializing getting out of sticky situations is good, however i think most of them that the portasci solves would just be running around until you find a pod instead of the really fun ones to escape from, several of which are only possible with the portasci. Theres still the problem with certain situations like the trench being almost inescapable now too which I personally think is worse than some situations being too easy to get out of. Also the clarification thing is another good reason to PR this stuff instead of pushing to master.

Overall after thinking it over i dont hate this change as much as i did before but still DEFINITELY disagree with it.

Edit: Also i dont think anyones ever seen the portasci as an rd exclusive thing, I agree with nefarious that if you want the RD to have a toy they should get a new one

[Camryn]

reposting from discord, since people there were getting hung up on adventure-zone stuff since the intent behind the change was not necessarily made clear:
Main reasons were:
  - detrivialize/encourage-proactiveness-in getting out of sticky situations (can't just ask AI for the portasci[remote] when stuck)
  - Reinforce that the port-a-sci is the RD's toy, in the same way that the NT syringe gun is the MD's, or the RCD-C is the CE's

Frankly, I don't see the second reason as valid when it clearly hasn't been that way for years. If you want the RD to have an exclusive toy, give them something new because the port-a-sci has been claimed by the department at large.

I also think that the "issue" behind the first reason is actually a good thing.

Getting lost, stuck, or trapped somewhere just straight up isn't fun. Having a reliably accessible escape option for when you inevitably fuck up and accidentally wall yourself into an asteroid is, honestly, very cool.

(Also, this change doesn't actually even address the first point since people can still ask the AI for the port-a-medbay program as long as they're not stuck on a restricted z. Granted, the AI will have to manually recall them, but that's only a few extra seconds tacked on)

[penny]

reposting from discord, since people there were getting hung up on adventure-zone stuff since the intent behind the change was not necessarily made clear:
Main reasons were:
  - detrivialize/encourage-proactiveness-in getting out of sticky situations (can't just ask AI for the portasci[remote] when stuck)
  - Reinforce that the port-a-sci is the RD's toy, in the same way that the NT syringe gun is the MD's, or the RCD-C is the CE's

I understand that risk and reward are part of what game gives a game depth and depth is part of what make a game fun.
But in a round-based social game there is nothing fun about being stuck on the bottom of a trench so that I get a "more satisfying gameplay experience"
It's just worse, being trapped on the bottom of the trench or stuck in a shop inside an asteroid made of indestructible materials(or just the void because telescience had a portal up and you lagged into it with NO FLASHLIGHT) leaves zero depth in your future. It leaves adventuring as a process of getting clone scanned and commiting suicide when you're ready to go back.
Medical's depth is similarly lowered into a respawn point for adventurers; because I know we all love collecting extra biomatter so much.

If you sit down and explain this change, you can't explain how it's fun.

[Carbadox]

Good change.

Pushing to master was definetely a better idea than PR. Nerfing/removing adventure zone gear is lame and it invalidates the history of the zones + the work people put into making them. TeleSci has become heavily abused since guides for completeing every single thing have become so prevelant and nerfing the free, get out of jail card that has absolutely no penalties for using as a crutch is a good idea. It's simple but not cheap, its elegant and it makes people think twice about what they do now.

[penny]

Good change.

Pushing to master was definetely a better idea than PR. Nerfing/removing adventure zone gear is lame and it invalidates the history of the zones + the work people put into making them. TeleSci has become heavily abused since guides for completeing every single thing have become so prevelant and nerfing the free, get out of jail card that has absolutely no penalties for using as a crutch is a good idea. It's simple but not cheap, its elegant and it makes people think twice about what they do now.

You're completely missing that this provides no detriment to powergamers, who will just play as RD or screwdriver and crowbar the office 2m into the game.

They will then scan it and give copies to their friends, the get out of jail for free card is simply restricted from regular players.

None of this seems to relate to the actual point of the PR which is to uh, make the RD feel special

[Carbadox]

Yeah it is. RD remote takes up an inventory spot and can't be worn like a PDA. Thats one spot less for weapons, medicine, etc.

Now the remote requires scanning and printing, which costs materials too. It's not too much but it's more than free that the previous method

[Bimbly]

Yeah it is. RD remote takes up an inventory spot and can't be worn like a PDA. Thats one spot less for weapons, medicine, etc.

Now the remote requires scanning and printing, which costs materials too. It's not too much but it's more than free that the previous method

I have never felt that 1 inventory spot worth of space while on an adventure (not even that because it fits in boxes which means it might as well make it take up no space) has been a detriment if im full up its because i brought extras not because im managing my inventory and people who are doing azones i can almost guarantee will not give two shits about the mats theyre taking from mechanics, this will at most increase the time it takes to get everything together by about two minutes.

Also I do agree with you to an extent on the loot thing, but your argument reminds me a little bit of the soul thing with the human resprite, just because somethings been there for a long time doesnt mean its perfect and cant be made better.

Also also whats your opinion on the points that were supposed to be addressed by this change too? (harder to get unstuck when lost in space, and making it feel like a special RD toy)

Also also also hard disagree on push to master

[Carbadox]

It's not a huge detriment but I think it's a nice enough nerf that makes you think about your inventory space without being overwhelming.

Im not against improving AZones, I just think people underestimate the meaning of what they're saying when they talk about just removing stuff. Once 2 people talked about how it'd be better to scrap the Job Rewards system and I felt kind of offended, even though my work on JobXP hasn't been really all that meaningful.

I think we have some obsolete, useless or broken in the sense of functionality things that could be axed but when people mention removals, I think it's only brought up because its the first thing that comes to mind that would resolve their own contentions with something, rather than because it's a fully thought out belief they have. Im not directly or intentionally directing this at anyone, Im guilty of this too and it's just human nature for us to try and find the quickest and easier solution to something.

I don't really have an opinion of the points given for the reasoning behind the change. They're nice for context but I think each person has their own reasoning on why a change is good or bad and how much they lean in on that reasoning

[pali6]

I have had some really fun rescue mission situations both on RP and non-RP servers. But it always felt pretty bad that all of that could have easily been invalidated by the use of a portasci and this is why I think either this change or some variant of it is good. With the current state of affairs you either need to prepare in advance (asking RD + mechanics to make you a copy of the remote or bringing the portasci with you) or you'll need to get people to come rescue you if you get stuck which is imo good. However, I think it'd be nice to add more ways to return from various places on your own. Adventure zones with no way back could get a way back at least to the teleporter. Z5 and debris could maybe get some more pods. Possibly trench mines could be able to blow up a hole in the ceiling and there could be some ladders spawned in the trench.

Adding more reliance on other people is imo good for the game both because it put ls a limit on solo powergaming and because mechanisms which promote player interaction tend to make this game more enjoyable from my experience. I think this change does that at least partially but I understand how people might have objections that powergamers are just gonna steal the remote anyway.

I personally would be open to other proposals of portasci changes but I'd like to keep at least some of the positives (or at least what I subjectively perceive as positives) above.

[GORE]

Good change.

[zjdtmkhzt]

I have had some really fun rescue mission situations both on RP and non-RP servers. But it always felt pretty bad that all of that could have easily been invalidated by the use of a portasci and this is why I think either this change or some variant of it is good. With the current state of affairs you either need to prepare in advance (asking RD + mechanics to make you a copy of the remote or bringing the portasci with you) or you'll need to get people to come rescue you if you get stuck which is imo good. However, I think it'd be nice to add more ways to return from various places on your own. Adventure zones with no way back could get a way back at least to the teleporter. Z5 and debris could maybe get some more pods. Possibly trench mines could be able to blow up a hole in the ceiling and there could be some ladders spawned in the trench.

Adding more reliance on other people is imo good for the game both because it put ls a limit on solo powergaming and because mechanisms which promote player interaction tend to make this game more enjoyable from my experience. I think this change does that at least partially but I understand how people might have objections that powergamers are just gonna steal the remote anyway.

I personally would be open to other proposals of portasci changes but I'd like to keep at least some of the positives (or at least what I subjectively perceive as positives) above.

Absolutely what I was going to write, any time I am RD or AI and I hear someone say "Help, I am stuck in Space!", it's like "Do I mount a fun rescue mission or do I just send them the port a sci app in like 3 seconds?".

Being able to just send the app anywhere to anyone in any situation is really the main issue here for me.
If this change indirectly leads to more other ways to get back to the station, that's nice too.

On that note, I also think it'd be nice to change the circular way that the edges of z levels work, where you can't get back to the station. I'd like it if it were instead made so that when you go over an edge, you can just turn around to go back to where you were. (Station<->Debris<->Mining<->Station<->etc)
Would feel a lot more intuitive to me and would make it so you could actually return to the station without finding a pod when you get spaced.

[zay25325]

reposting from discord, since people there were getting hung up on adventure-zone stuff since the intent behind the change was not necessarily made clear:
Main reasons were:
  - detrivialize/encourage-proactiveness-in getting out of sticky situations (can't just ask AI for the portasci[remote] when stuck)
  - Reinforce that the port-a-sci is the RD's toy, in the same way that the NT syringe gun is the MD's, or the RCD-C is the CE's

The RD's toy is the hand tele, and should not be porta sci.

Instead I would recommend actually buffing the hand tele, or giving the RD an upgraded hand tele, because of how limited it is. the teleportation mod for cyborgs allows them to teleport to any beacon regardless of whether or not there is a teleporter lock on it, but when using the hand tele there is always the change to lose and organ.

requiring people to use the physical remote for porta sci might not be too bad, but you need to have enough remotes so telesci isn't RD only.

---

If people solo azoning for overpowered gear is the problem, the solution is removing the overpowered gear from azones.

while not a bad idea, you do have to remember that there are a few creatures in the azone that you require the overpowered gear in order to kill. yea, you could go and print like 5 extra phasers but that's not ideal. If the items were removed then the creatures would need a decent nerf.