warcrimes, goonstation discord

[Mopcat]

i want to express my distaste for how warc is speaking in goonstation public channels, i hope this message comes through to them and makes them reconsider their behavior. i personally have in very few situations seen warcrimes speak in such a manner that isnt disrespectful at best, and downright hostile at worst to the other participants, especially in arguments and debates. i myself have been banned for the same manner of speaking and the way they treat people, due to it being a violation of the discord rules. this behavior also violates the admin guidelines outlined in the rules section of the wiki, specifically this segment:



additionally, i've seen other administrators sweep this behavior under the rug with something along the line of "that's just how warc be", which does not excuse their mannerisms and if anything is encouraging their antagonistic conversational habits.  i can also speak from experience in saying that an average player making this excuse for continually being rude and abrasive to other people would result in an admin either telling them to improve their behavior, or just banning them anyways, depending on the context of the situation. i believe anyone in a position of authority in a group should be held to a higher standard in that group, and warc's behavior being excused like this and not being reprimanded is, in my opinion, Not Good.

i hope that this isn't taken as a bad faith argument, because it's not. this is meant to be criticism based on what i and other community members have witnessed, and nothing more.

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oh dear god the image did not post correctly

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okay so the image didn't send correctly and instead became a huge wall of text. whoops.


this is what was meant to be sent. hopefully it works

[Enakai]

Hi Mop, Warc hasn't been around for a while now - did this problem occur a while ago?

Also, are there any specific examples that you can refer to? I (and a few other staff) are a little unsure in regards to what you're referring to with "admins sweeping warc's behaviour under the rug" (if you could point something out with a screenshot or even a description of an event, that would be very much appreciated) and we'd like to figure out what went on. Thanks!

[Superlagg]

Somewhat related, but Warc somewhat recently wrote a few rude comments when undoing some of my broken code:




I know its not really all that bad, snarky comments are more or less a staple of gooncode, and I'm like 80% sure it wasn't directed at me personally. Like, I'm okay with being told the stuff I did isn't good, it's all helpful feedback from people I respect, and I'm very thankful for just how patient and eager to teach byondcode the coders have been!

But, it still hurt when I read it. Being impersonally told that your code is a nonsense factory by someone whose an authority on coding, and who you also don't know well enough to figure if that's a joke or not (come to think of it, its obviously a joke, but still), it kinda made me feel like I'm just bad at this.

I dunno, I'm probably wrong here thinking this, I was having a pretty fucked up week when this happened, and I doubt I'd be all that shaken up if, like, zewaka pinged me saying that my code is fucking awful and then reverted my gunbuddy PR. Probably something to do with how I only found out about this after digging through the commit history to see if anything else of mine (other than the dumpster fire of my eat-actionbar PR that I'm actually happy got reverted because I just didnt have the time to fix it, sorry again about that) got changed, no pings about it or anything (which I guess is pretty reasonable, since I never really sign my code, and I don't blame anyone who doesn't want to do gooncode detective shit just to tell someone they changed a thing you did).

[Mopcat]

Hi Mop, Warc hasn't been around for a while now - did this problem occur a while ago?

Also, are there any specific examples that you can refer to? I (and a few other staff) are a little unsure in regards to what you're referring to with "admins sweeping warc's behaviour under the rug" (if you could point something out with a screenshot or even a description of an event, that would be very much appreciated) and we'd like to figure out what went on. Thanks!

https://i.gyazo.com/d99cabde185675154d0b...a74358.png
https://i.gyazo.com/6a82d5f8ad34b95b3697...1032c7.png

context: i had posted my (admittedly very cynical) opinion in #imspoilered about a certain adventure zone and its design flaws, and warc had responded with this, rather than a more professional and constructive response that i'd expect from a person of authority.

https://i.gyazo.com/bc7b09abf2759e3df05c...e1f54a.png
https://i.gyazo.com/d84f6fc720ebb33d63b8...ef3e0e.png

context: warc was trying to defend what the community considers bad map design (pipes under walls) as "lore", leading to the above responses. for reference, moon was saying that pipes being under walls isn't really storytelling that anyone would notice and that to most players it just comes across as lazy map design.

i'd dig up more but a. discord's search function sucks and is just a slog to sit through and b. i'm honestly not in the mood to right now

[Enakai]

Thanks Mop and Superlagg, I'll go ahead and pass it on in the admin channel so we can have a discussion regarding it.

[nefarious6th]

I would just like to acknowledge that with the particular case on the pipes, the context of the conversation was one that...someone was working on a project and was told in a very hostile way by community members that their piping was bad. They went ahead and fixed it, but then that didn't work out, so they re-edited it, but that's where Warc jumped in. While I don't intend to downplay anything else that might've come up here in this thread, I think with that particular scenario (and oftentimes when people do post in immapper), the tonality of the conversation was already set as something hostile and belittling, and Warc I don't think contributed to that with the intent of being mean or aggressive, but rather to make it more apparent to others that when it comes to mapping regards, many times the discussions veer towards an insulting tonality and dialogue that results in a lot of frustration and defeatism from those simply trying to do their best and contribute to the game. That's all.

Sorry for derailing/if this isn't very relevant.

[warcrimes]

Thanks for the feedback.
I'd like to apologize to Superlagg, honestly some of my comments on there are rude as hell.

I stand by everything I said to mop and moon though.
Bullies need their shit rattled and y'all verbally antagonize people around you constantly.
You're used to being handled with white gloves and "administrative care" and it shows.
There's a good reason i'm not really around right now, and you should be thankful.

[Mopcat]

Thanks for the feedback.
I'd like to apologize to Superlagg, honestly some of my comments on there are rude as hell.

I stand by everything I said to mop and moon though.
Bullies need their shit rattled and y'all verbally antagonize people around you constantly.
You're used to being handled with white gloves and "administrative care" and it shows.
There's a good reason i'm not really around right now, and you should be thankful.

first of all, people disagreeing with your opinions and actions does not equal "bully"
second of all, while i can't speak for moon, i can say that i do genuinely try to be the best person i can be on the server and sometimes get overwhelmed and emotional, causing me to do things that i regret. brushing off all of the times where i'm actively trying to be a nice person and calling me a bully is both insulting and ignorant.
lastly, if pretty much every other admin can handle members of the community being "bullies" without being antagonistic themselves, then why can't you?

[moonlol]

Thanks for the feedback.
I'd like to apologize to Superlagg, honestly some of my comments on there are rude as hell.

I stand by everything I said to mop and moon though.
Bullies need their shit rattled and y'all verbally antagonize people around you constantly.
You're used to being handled with white gloves and "administrative care" and it shows.
There's a good reason i'm not really around right now, and you should be thankful.

As mop said, disagreeing with people is being a bully? really? wow. Even IF I am a so-called """bully""", it's awfully hypocritical of you given the very complaint that is being made against you. I don't think being a general arse towards a bully will "rattle" their "shit" either.

You are not in a position to accuse me and mop of being antagonistic towards others "constantly", given almost every conversation I have seen you in, you are antagonistic to another member of the conversation. 

I myself try to be as respectful to the other person in a conversation, however that is not always the case, and I realize I am a person with flaws, and contrary to what it might seem, do try to improve upon the aforementioned flaws, unlike you. All I see from you is "I am an asshole, deal with it" (you even said it yourself at one point), with no effort to improve or to make a conversation better for others.



Oh and, just for the record regarding what nef said,

...someone was working on a project and was told in a very hostile way by community members that their piping was bad...

during that immapper conversation (the pipes) they weren't told in a hostile manner at all 
(I don't consider "bad, pipe going under wall bad[with an image attached]" and "pipes under windows should generally be avoided if you can do so easily[also with an image]" to be hostile),
I didn't say anything to the mapper either, all my messages were directed at warcrimes, none of them being rude. So warcrimes was being an arse in that conversation without a smidge of reason.
 

You're used to being handled with white gloves and "administrative care" and it shows. 

and you? You're used to being an asshole without anyone caring, and it shows.

You're right, I am thankful you aren't around right now, as you cant shit on me on discord and must do so here, publicly with 0 fear of it getting lost in scrollback.

[nefarious6th]

Actually, I wasn't really talking about you at all in this scenario, what I meant was someone immediately posting an image of errors with the only text being "pain." to a new mapper is nonhelpful and hostile. It doesn't have the best interests of the person receiving the feedback at heart because it's insensitive in the way it's done, whether the issue is legitmate or not. Then we got onto "objective mapping rules established by ???" which is where Warc got involved. Sorry that wasn't more apparent to you.