detective

[KikiMofo]

Just replace Vice Officer with Investigator or something. Or just play Vice Officer like how you guys think Investigator should act. Personally I dont want MORE sec roles. I preferred when it was just HoS and the Security Officer team and SOMETIMES the detective helps out. Felt more cohesive and if someone wanted to do something specific they could.

[kyle2143]

I think one part of the problem/ nuance here is that a lot of people who've shared on this are RP-server frequenters; I know people keep bringing up cap as a counterpoint, but RP has no more antag caps, so detective is the only role that starts with lethals anymore.

It sounds like then that the main issue is with detective on RP. Mop's patch about removing lethal rounds from the detective's round start box might fit better if it only applied when on RP mode. Or else making Detective unable to roll antagonist on RP mode. But then leaving things as they are for now on main. 

It would be nice to have forensics more detailed/better to track targets. But that sort of change is a bit more in depth than simply changing 2-ish lines of code which is what would be necessary for changing det antag/ammunition on RP.

[Stephmo]

It sounds like then that the main issue is with detective on RP. Mop's patch about removing lethal rounds from the detective's round start box might fit better if it only applied when on RP mode. Or else making Detective unable to roll antagonist on RP mode. But then leaving things as they are for now on main. 

My thoughts on the Detective come from my experience playing almost exclusively on RP servers, so I don't really have an opinion on if/how they should change on the Classic servers.

With that in mind, I think removing the Detective's lethal rounds from the start box would be beneficial. In a recent round I played Detective, and because of the access to lethal rounds, an Officer treated me as nothing more than an executioner, ordering me to kill suspects on sight. This isn't an uncommon perception of the Detective. Removing the lethal rounds would help change how the Detective is utilized by Security and still leaves the Detective with a very effective weapon since the revolver doesn't need to be recharged and stun speed loaders are relatively abundant.

I'm in agreement that the Detective should remain a possible antagonist. The Detective is portrayed as an ex-officer, now private contractor, and because of that he should be prone to the same temptation to sell out to the Syndicate as any other non-Security crew member.

Maybe if forensics was more usable of a source of information, but even then I'm not sure. Because if we locked all the forensics that are damning behind detective, then regular security would want it too and eventually get it and then we're right back here.

More powerful/useful forensics tools would be great! I don't believe that Security asking for them would be much of an issue as long as the new/buffed tools are flavored correctly. I don't think I've seen any Security begging for det_net goggles, or the go-go-gadget-hat, for example, even though both of these items would be useful for Security Officers to have. Because they're tailored for an Inspector Gadget Wannabe and not for Space Mall Cops, the distinction is clear and Security doesn't go after them, especially on RP servers.

An alternate solution to giving the Detective more forensics would be to further expand his surveillance capabilities. Things along the lines of controllable camera drones or hidden cameras that can placed around would be welcome additions. Maybe more gadget toys would be fun. Go go gadget grabby hands! Go go gadget springy legs! 

Edit: Huh stephmo, it could be fun splitting the detective into a "detective" who is on the force/has a lot of specialty forensics tools and can't start antag and an "inspector" or "PI" (or something along those lines) who occupies the current "loose cannon" role. Maybe he has worse equipment than the role that's on the sec team but makes up for it with illegal lethal ammunition and guile.

 Or visa versa (idk which name would fit which roke better), personally I like traitor detective a lot and traitor PI doesn't sound as good. But it could lead to an interesting dynamic between the roles since PI's and detectives habe a sort of rivalry irl, at least that's what I gathered from watching Brooklyn 99.

Detective I consider open ended to interpretation of how they should act, since there's a lot of different kinds of detective tropes out there. Personally, I think a lone Detective offers more to a rounds atmosphere than a

I don't think splitting the role into "Detective" and "Investigator" a bad idea, though I think this could be a good opportunity to use job rewards or tokens and let the detective trade in their gun or lethal ammo for more investigative equipment instead and let them spec themselves as they see fit for the round

I like the token idea! A possible solution to forensics would be to remove the forensics cart from Security's PDA, remove all loose Forensics Scanners in Security, then put them in a Basic Forensics Kit that can be purchased with tokens. This gives Security the capability to do basic forensics if a Detective isn't available without trivializing access to forensics like it is right now.

Regarding latitude in the role, the Detective is currently very lopsided toward PI. His tools, his weapon, his office, and his monologues, all point toward ex-security, now hired contractor. Extremely restricted access to Security and Officer equipment do point more toward Security Officer, but this is minimal. I agree that having the latitude within the role would be interesting, but as it stands, the Detective is very distanced from Security. Even his own private office is completely separate from Security on all maps. However, in the name of retaining some open-endedness, I can see the value in the Detective keeping their access to Security sectors and some tools like flashes/handcuffs. 

There was a discussion some time ago related kind of to this greater idea, but specifically about forensics and how to broaden it. I'll keep trying to find it though, I remember some good and workable points to look at improving.

I'd love to see this discussion!

----

With all of that said, and keeping in mind the focus on the RP server, here's a revised list of changes I would like to see:

1. Detective's access to SecVend machines is revoked. Extra stun speed loaders, box of cuffs, found in equipment locker (or similar).
   
2. Detective's ability to use SecMate to issue tickets, fines, and arrest warrants is removed.
   
3. Detective starts with non-lethal rounds only.
   
4. Remove forensics cart from Security Officer's PDA, remove loose Forensics Scanners in Security, create new token loadout for Security called "Forensics Kit" that includes the cart, scanner, evidence bags, etc.
   
5. More cool forensics/surveillance/go go gadgets for the Detective only.
   

Edit: The more I think about it, the more I really, really want a little RC drone with built in camera and audio recorder for the Detective to fly around. Could even jack into the drone via their det_net goggles and fly it in VR FPV.

[Leeanei]

In my experience on main, Detective was also too much and it was also mostly because of the extremely strong gun. The only reason this doesn't have more people from main right now is because no one is making det a big issue main. But detective's core design favors valid hunting because they have the tools to find and locate antags and then kill them very very quickly.

On RP right now I'm going to guess the issue is more pronounced because people badly want the role to work and be trustworthy on RP. It doesn't work if it isn't trustworthy and I know quite a lot of security heavy players by default don't trust the detective and don't ask them for anything.

tbh from a very personal perspective, I've been shot more by non-antag dets than everything else combined on RP.

[Kak0phony]

I really like the idea to move Detective to a more PI loose cannon civilian role, and let sec officers kit into a proper Police Detective role.