[PR] Gives the Head of Security an anti-mindslave health implant

[BatElite]

I'd like to remind peeps that this PR isn't about blanket immunity anymore.

I just don't have the ability to change the title or top post.

[Caro]

I think an anti-mindslave implant is a very fair solution. It still will be very much possible to cut out the implant from HoS on the spot, since you can stun them, construct a bed with metal sheets and cut it out. It won't be as easy as "click the HoS with implant to win" anymore but still possible, if you really want to make the HoS the villian of the station.

And over the months of playtime on goon, I've seen several HoS players being tormented with mindslave implants over and over again, making me sigh and think "not again" whenever that happened. Mindslaving HoSes gives antagonists a massive advantage and it always gets tiring if someone is running this strategy into the ground over the course of a few weeks straight. It's just too easy right now so I give this PR a +1

[KikiMofo]

As much fun as it always was to see OMJ go fucking BONKERS as a mindslaved HoS I do agree that it does set a bad example for new security if that was their first time playing.....THOUGH they shouldnt be playing security as their first time playing on goon in the first place.

[Trustworthy]

Personally, I'm against such a specific change. One of ss13's core features is that you can't trust anyone. Anyone can be an antagonist, or under an antagonist's direct control. Removing that aspect for a single role, and only in a certain capacity, would worsen things. The HoS doesn't need to be more trustworthy, part of the reason a mindslaved HoS is so powerful is because nearly everyone trusts them. You can be acting in a clearly antagonistic and unHoS-like manner, and most of the crew will trust you over their own eyes when all you say is "traitor" or "changeling" while unloading lethals into the chef. If they're made partly immune to mindslaves, it'll make this even worse, because if anyone accuses the HoS of being a mindslave, its likely they'll be told "But the HoS can't be a mindslave!". The fact of the matter is people are stupid, and they shouldn't be given more ammunition to be stupid with. As long as the crew wises up, a mindslaved HoS isn't anywhere near as big of a threat as people see it as, and this won't change the core issue, which is that the crew doesn't wise up.

Besides, such a specific interaction doesn't make sense to me, considering some roles are able to wreak just as much havoc, if not more cough cough science cough cough. All other roles can be mindslaved, and some questionable jobs can even spawn as antags themselves. The only reason HoS is singled out is because HoSes stand out, so cognitive bias occurs. When a HoS is mindslaved and goes on a rampage, it sticks in your head more than if it was some random scientist, even if the damge is the same, or even less. With the scientist, its also possible that instead of being angry at how overpowered scientists are, the victim will direct their anger towards the person themselves. With HoS, this usually doesn't happen. I've seen people complain about how John McToxins keeps canbombing the station as a mindslave, or being extremely suspicious of Jim McChemist and mindslave checking him on a whim, so much so its kinda wild. But I've almost never seen complaints about a specific HoS rampaging while mindslaved. A mindslaved HoS is a mindslaved HoS, anyone else is just a mindslaved John Doe.

This would just confuse new players, feel out of place, and most importantly not fix the problem its trying to deal with. If such a mechanic were introduced, then we should look at more jobs than just the Head of Security, and reconsider some previous decisions regarding certain jobs and antagonist status. My name is Trustworthy, and thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.

[GORE]

100% agree with Trustworthy.

The mere fact that a plate is one of the most destructive items available to everyone - should not get specific people un-plate-able.
So a mindslave implant should still work on everyone; besides - just play like a paranoid person.

Don't let folks get too close.
Who says the HoS has to walk up to everyone and greet the clown with a handshake?

[KikiMofo]

I mean the HoS already doesnt get antag roles. Same as security. So its not really changing much. It just adds an extra step.
I know people dont like to trust security because a lot of shitters use it but HoS are people that have proved themselves(generally I guess) to not be shitters so people already DO trust HoS. Kinda detracts from the can't trust ANYONE thing you are talking about.

[aft2001]

The thing is, you still can't *fully* trust the HoS, since it's still possible to be mindslaved, just not so easy that it's not really fun for the HoS player. This is a middle ground between "no, hos cannot ever be antag" and "you can make hos antag with a couple clicks", paralleling "hos needs to consistently be able to demonstrate what security should be" and "inability to truly trust someone is a core feature of the game".

[GORE]

The thing is, you still can't *fully* trust the HoS, since it's still possible to be mindslaved, just not so easy that it's not really fun for the HoS player. This is a middle ground between "no, hos cannot ever be antag" and "you can make hos antag with a couple clicks", paralleling "hos needs to consistently be able to demonstrate what security should be" and "inability to truly trust someone is a core feature of the game".

Mind that the couple of clicks required might need a lot more than just a couple of clicks.

Gotta knock out the HoS without anybody noticing, near instantly, without drawing any suspicion and then get the HoS to a bed or surgery table to remove the implant and plop in your own. All whilst the AI might be watching and the HoS pulled the lawgiver already.

- - -

Realistically there would be two ways to pull this off, without getting called out.

1. Be a science nerd and make a knockout cocktail.

2. Implant the HoS the second they leave the cloner - if they died previously.

[Frank_Stein]

I think I'd feel better about this with a few conditions

1. It doesn't start inside the HoS. The HoS has access to it, and can retrieve it to use on themselves (Or someone else!)
2. It's not an infallible blocker. A simple thing you can do is have it reduce the time a normal implant lasts and put a limit on the deluxe one.
Personally, I think it should have some kind of quirk or gimmick to it that makes mindslaving more of a challenge. My thought was the implant embeds a sort of "4th Law" on top of your normal mindslave conditions that complicates things. For instance, being compelled to speak truthfully to everyone, or to only accept mindslave commands if phrased as a question.

[Slazenger]

one idea that was discussed in adminchat was to have the head of security start with a "loyalty implant" that needed to be cut out before the head of security could be mindslaved. i think thats a good idea, because it makes taking over the hos a bit more involved than just "click once" and makes it so that theyre also not totally immune

I really like this idea. It still gives antags agency but adds an extra step that will force antags to get a bit more creative than just brushing against a HoS to immediately have access to the armory and allest-of-all access.

Gore, the core issue is the HoS needs to be difficult to mindslave because they have to be trustworthy. I have seen people scream at HoSes in OOC for ages because of actions done when mindslaved, and a mindslaved HoS can set an extremely bad example for brand new security!

The latter part of that rings true - definitely part of the reason I genuinely hate being mindslaved as HoS. You get into some funny/amusing RP scenarios, but it can do some serious harm to trust, as an example to others, etc.

[GORE]

I think I'd feel better about this with a few conditions

1. It doesn't start inside the HoS. The HoS has access to it, and can retrieve it to use on themselves (Or someone else!)
2. It's not an infallible blocker. A simple thing you can do is have it reduce the time a normal implant lasts and put a limit on the deluxe one.
Personally, I think it should have some kind of quirk or gimmick to it that makes mindslaving more of a challenge. My thought was the implant embeds a sort of "4th Law" on top of your normal mindslave conditions that complicates things. For instance, being compelled to speak truthfully to everyone, or to only accept mindslave commands if phrased as a question.

Yeah - do a list of like a few laws; add said law 4th without informing the person who implanted them - merely hint at what the law might be.

That be a cool addition.
Could create interesting scenarios instead of a harsh limit or simple quite annoying burden to overcome.

100% my favorite call so far.

[KikiMofo]

Maybe make the mindslave work on the HoS like a rev flash works on a loyalty implanted person? Have to stand there and wait while it works on them. Obviously it keeps the HoS down during that but people can come and see you are OBVIOUSLY implanting the HoS

[GORE]

That and the 4th law would surely put a lighter challenge on the traitor rather than a full blown surgery session.

Yeah.

Appliance time + 4th random law seems like a fun and fair addition.

[Leeanei]

seeing an RP/main disagreement here, tbh. I strongly prefer being tough to mindslave because of the trust/good example to new sec(20 rounds is not a whole lot!)/not getting blown up at because I'm under orders that make me violent.

[Adhara In Space]

i merged this. direct all criticisms to recyclebin.exe