A 'respected' position that isn't Sec or Command staff

[MoonJesus]

Just getting a little concerned the more I see NTSO's walking around with heavy armor suits and some seriously stacked Sec officer teams killing antags ~10 minutes into a round. Not to mention one or two members of the community (who frequently played HoS) turning out to be sociopathic and getting banned.

Mentors are all good and fine. How about some kind of elevated gimmick job or antag role alternative to HoS?

Maybe for instance, making the leader of the nuke team be an option for whitelisted players instead of completely randomized; if no whitelisted players are around then its random, but they get priority, and maybe trusted with some slightly better gear akin to HoS/NTSO's.

I've been playing since 2009 but never applied for Mentor because, IDK, I guess I don't take the game all that seriously enough to write the essay. Also I prefer playing antag over security, I think it takes a certain person to actually enjoy playing sec, hell to even consider being an HoS. Why should a 'respected' position be limited to being trusted with security roles? Just my 2c

[pali6]

Hm, I'm not quite sure what exactly you want from such feature. If for example the leader of the nukie team was whitelisted what would the whitelist be based on? Would we have nukie leader applications in the forum? What purpose would such a whitelist serve?

HoS is whitelisted because security is arguably the most difficult role to play, not because of the skill involved but because the decisions you need to make are not only straightforward "see bad guy -> kill bad guy" but you should apply appropriate levels of punishment to keep the round fun. That's far from simple and so an experienced security players are a good fit for the head of the department because they can bonk bad officers on the head. Adding a 'respected' position for the sake of it existing doesn't seem like it'd bring any benefits to me.

[MoonJesus]

I guess if HoS is for 'robust' players. Make some opposite end of the spectrum whitelisted role for 'funny' players. Kinda like blue cown or w/e.

[pali6]

HoS is not for robust players, that's a common misconception. HoSes should primarily be judged based on how they handle gray area situations as a sec officer and if their secoff-ing generally leads to rounds being more enjoyable.

What would this 'funny' whitelisted role have compared to current roles? What would whitelisting the role bring compared to it existing unwhitelisted?

[SimianC]

Head of Security carrying a level of respect, at least in comparison to other roles, is due in part to the application requirement. 
The whitelist isn't to gatekeep the Armory or other tools, but to create a role for teaching players how to play security through example. When players see a Head of Security, they know they can be trusted to act as a positive presence and that they understand security fundamentals and server rules (escalation in particular) because they underwent the application process and were approved by the community. 

Creating a role that carries an intrinsic level of respect isn't feasible without some type of whitelist and community input.
For example, the Captain or Nuke Op Commander should carry a level of respect because of their title, at least in theory, but because they are selected randomly their input isn't valued any more than their subordinates'.
There have been suggestions for giving Head of Security, mentors, and players with more rounds under their belt preference when selecting commanders for Nuke Ops, but I believe reception has been mixed. 

Personally, I don't think we should limit players' access to roles any more than what is necessary.

[KikiMofo]

I don't really want any more HoS privs but I don't see a problem with Nuke Op Commanders being weighted towards HoS accepted players and having the name reflect that they are HoS accepted or some kinda special hat I dunno. Maybe then people might actually listen to the Commanders more and trust they actually know what they are doing and the other syndies might actually team up properly.
Eitherway I don't really think there needs to be more whitelists or more special stuff for HoS.

[MoonJesus]

Eitherway I don't really think there needs to be more whitelists or more special stuff for HoS.

I agree. I guess this is what I was getting at.

The whitelist isn't to gatekeep the Armory or other tools, but to create a role for teaching players how to play security through example. When players see a Head of Security, they know they can be trusted to act as a positive presence and that they understand security fundamentals and server rules (escalation in particular) because they underwent the application process and were approved by the community. 

Honestly, most HoS's don't come off this way. AT ALL. at least in my experience. HoS comes off far more as an alpha class character that antags are supposed to be wary of. Lawbringer comes to mind here.

Personally, I don't think we should limit players' access to roles any more than what is necessary.

I agree. As someone who played through the TURDS era, when HoS was reintroduced it was minimal and didn't bother me as much. Now though with NTSO's and the like, I'm a little bothered by it.

[Tribaja]

I've had an idea for a good while now (ever since construction was added to the normal jobs) of kind-of a construction worker whitelist job that would get all the old perks of the construction worker (if the RCDD was nerfed because of grief, haven't played in a while) and some other construction related perks to speed up construction.

Something like all access, the aforementioned construction workers old gear, faster build times, and perhaps 200 stacks of glass and steel on spawn. Even with carpenter trait building stuff is just way too slow nowadays for me because of the progress bar update. Building one wall takes almost as long as it took to build mininium 3 walls before since you could add plating/reinforce every girder within 1 tile, not so with the progress bar. I just don't see it worth the effort anymore for the amount of time it takes. With a whitelist req for the job the people who got it would actually be more focused on building and I imagine a lot more hesitant to grief with the perks since they risk losing access to it.

I'd make the application process for it pretty lax though since it's always great fun to see people build stuff, maybe have people post 5 examples of their builds and small questions like "What is your favorite spot to build" etc. Something easy to get whitelisted, but also easy to lose if you abuse it. I'd even make it not applicable for getting picked as a traitor.

Maybe keep the theme of NT special folks by calling it "Nanotrasen Building Master" or something along those lines.

[Drago156]

In regards to the nukie commander being weighted towards HoS/mentor, I'm personally all for it, means that the nukie commander might actually be listened to a bit more and bring more coordination to nukie squads, which is a key determinant in winning as a nukie.

I want to mention that while NTSO has a fuck lot of armor and lethals, they have also seen some nerfs, like the loss of their clock 188 ammo pouch and their access being dropped to equal a security officer + bridge.

I've no doubt said it before but I'll say again that security is seriously under equipped for dealing with just about any lethal and majorly destructive force, and if there were more tools at the disposal of standard sec, then I think the stark contrast and difference between HoS, NTSO, and a standard officer wouldn't be as big or concerning. People can say that stun gear is overpowered and the only way to go, but that really isn't true. Stuns are far more easily countered than most lethals, simply because of how many stims there are in the game and the fact that they all stack together, combined with the fact that armor also partially negates stuns. So you can quite easily counter sec equipment if you put the effort into doing so.

Finally, if you see someone being a shit or poo, absolutely put them in their place and robust them, maybe even take their card and crush the damn thing. The less that shittery is tolerated, the less likely someone is to be shit. Just make sure you know when not to do this thing to avoid being a shitter yourself.

[Superlagg]

Whitelisted roles? Nah. Non-antag roles? I like it.

Maybe another role other than sec that is ineligible for being an antagonist, able to be metarespected, minus the arsenal. Not sure which role this should be, but it might be a better idea than more role gatekeeping.

[Ion Mage]

Perhaps time-gated variant titles for roles that the player has enough hours in a specific role? Like, Senior Engineer for Engineer, Surgeon for Doctor, etc? No actual game mechanics unlocked, just a simple job title that acts as a badge saying "this players played this role a lot, therefore must know a lot".

[MoonJesus]

I've no doubt said it before but I'll say again that security is seriously under equipped for dealing with just about any lethal and majorly destructive force, and if there were more tools at the disposal of standard sec, then I think the stark contrast and difference between HoS, NTSO, and a standard officer wouldn't be as big or concerning.

There needs to be a balance though. If Sec is able to just be a brick wall to every possible threat then antags wont get to pull any hilarious or chaotic hijinks at all. There is a tribal justice to the station that takes place and theres plenty of vigilantes out there who go out of there way to attack known antags. Buffing sec any more than they currently have been isn't the answer.

Besides the only 'lethal and destructive' force that comes to mind is nuke ops, multiple wizards, and, idk, well-organized revs? Nuke ops has the entire crew vs them and tend to be grossly unorganized or incompetent or both, and with Wiznerds usually one or two of them try to be peaceful from the start.

Maybe we need more non-sec roles to have a counter similar to Chaplain being a counter to wraiths and vamps, and the chapel being a safezone from spells.

Also I hate the 'shitter' label. Some people are downright dicks or do rule breaking stuff yeah, but people should be allowed to mess around to an extent and have fun. You get maybe a handful of antag rounds a year if you don't play every hour of every day. Thats why ass day was what it was, so you could blow off steam.

[Drago156]

Whitelisted roles? Nah. Non-antag roles? I like it.

Maybe another role other than sec that is ineligible for being an antagonist, able to be metarespected, minus the arsenal. Not sure which role this should be, but it might be a better idea than more role gatekeeping.

You could argue that's kind of what construction worker was, and look how that went...

I've no doubt said it before but I'll say again that security is seriously under equipped for dealing with just about any lethal and majorly destructive force, and if there were more tools at the disposal of standard sec, then I think the stark contrast and difference between HoS, NTSO, and a standard officer wouldn't be as big or concerning.

There needs to be a balance though. If Sec is able to just be a brick wall to every possible threat then antags wont get to pull any hilarious or chaotic hijinks at all. There is a tribal justice to the station that takes place and theres plenty of vigilantes out there who go out of there way to attack known antags. Buffing sec any more than they currently have been isn't the answer.

Besides the only 'lethal and destructive' force that comes to mind is nuke ops, multiple wizards, and, idk, well-organized revs? Nuke ops has the entire crew vs them and tend to be grossly unorganized or incompetent or both, and with Wiznerds usually one or two of them try to be peaceful from the start.

Maybe we need more non-sec roles to have a counter similar to Chaplain being a counter to wraiths and vamps, and the chapel being a safezone from spells.

Also I hate the 'shitter' label. Some people are downright dicks or do rule breaking stuff yeah, but people should be allowed to mess around to an extent and have fun. You get maybe a handful of antag rounds a year if you don't play every hour of every day. Thats why ass day was what it was, so you could blow off steam.

blobs, cooperating antags, heavily armed antags, and arguably even good changelings and vampires are also on that list, and I'm not saying openly giving security officers lethals at roundstart, but it seems counter intuitive to have an armory that's just stun+, like some of that gear should probably be at least semi-decent as lethals to deal with threats that you can't necessarily stun or arrest.

In the chaplain's case you start treading detective territory, where you have a conflict between trust and power. Sure, the chaplain is a very powerful asset against vampires and wizards, but if they're also an antag then they really aren't a great go to option and can abuse that trust to betray you with the very gear they're supposed to use to protect people.

I don't use the shitter label for people who are obviously or clearly an antagonist, I use it to distinguish people who AREN'T antags and yet are still doing antagonistic things or just generally being a griffing ass purely to piss people off, or alternatively for people who are powertripping based off of their role or access.

[Frank_Stein]

I've thought having another non-sec guaranteed non-antag role could work.

Chaplain would probably be my top pick for it. They're kind of the station's cleric, and we could start pivoting some of their extra powers away from anti-antag to support powers for the rest of the crew.

IE, Rituals chalk and the Altar

[Trustworthy]

Crazy idea, what if we made captains unable to be antagonists? Wacky, I know, but its a nonsec antag role that would only benefit from being given the "sort of trustworthy" tag. Or detective cos they're not sec. I'll show myself out.