Make subs unable to traverse station turf/tiles

[Drago156]

As the title suggests, subs should be changed to be confined to hangar/sea floor tiles and turfs.

For a long while I have seen on station and on shuttle subs, since Oshan was first released really. Seeing these able to move around the station makes me wonder why they have special treatment but yet pods were disabled from traversing these turfs for the same reason: being too powerful on station/shuttle turfs.

I have seen countless rounds where people have just hidden in subs on the shuttle to stay safe or used them in the station to harm people with little counter. But one round recent was the kind of final straw for me.

The round in question was a nuke round on Manta, I was equipped with the 40mm launcher, smokes, and the standard security armor vest and helmet. I shot out the equivalent of one box of smoke shells with the riot launcher at the nukies, which provided a relatively nice advantage to the crew by disarming the nukies, but through the smoke one of the nukies had a shotty sub and hit their own nukie medic once or twice before rolling further through the smoke along the station hallway and point blank shotgunning me three times through the smoke, and despite the previously mentioned armor I was wearing, I had my appendix, liver, and kidney entirely killed with those three shots alone, not to mention the other organs being damaged and the 120~ brute i got and bleed.

Nukie shotty sub is a major reason why this is a problem in my eyes but there's also the other reasons I've mentioned.

[DJ-Fireball_did_this]

The thing is everybody loves it despite, if not because of, the utterly fucked balence.

[Chayot]

I agree it is strong yet I would argue that it's likely meant to be.

Often Antags will be disadvantaged by numbers so it's important that they have such options as the Nukie's Shotgun Sub available.
Yes it is powerful and killed you, it is meant to be powerful and kill you.

For a counter In your case, SEC barrier can reflect attacks and kill the sub from a distance.
Also have you considered laying down on the ground to avoid being shot? It works for Pods, haven't tried it on Subs.
I would like to add that the Sub is disadvantaged compared to the Pods b/c they're simply slow-turning and therefore vulnerable to melee from behind or to the sides.

The Shotgun-Sub isn't often readily available to most antags.
So most of the time they are armed with less-lethal weaponry when an Antag decides to rampage inside one. (aside from z-level items)

I'd say this was simply a loss for you. It's not every round that an antag gets in a sub and starts gunning down crew.
If it happened more often I may agree with you. As it is now, I don't see it as a problem. Thoughts?

[Drago156]

To DJ_Fireball: Fun for one doesn't mean fun for all, which is where a lot of goon has been headed in recent years, and the exact reason pods got nerfed.

To Chayot: This wasn't an individual antag, this was a full squad of nukies, who are ALWAYS well armed, unless they don't know what they're doing. Also, I did have a barrier, but I had zero clue there was a nukie sub until I got shotgunned from smoke. As for lying on the ground... the shotgun sub uses the equivalent of lethal buckshot, which has a high chance to hit even while laying on the ground, not to mention the sub with spacker gun can fire INFINITELY, generally the only projectile you can dodge while on ground every time is the taser. As for subs being slower, they're also much beefier, often having more health than a pod with even less counterability with another sub/pod, because civilian pod mining phasers suck. Finally, pods were nerfed because it was so bad that there was podnerdery almost every round and a pod on the shuttle every round. subs may have less customization currently, but I still see a sub on the ocean shuttles every round it is oshan or manta. Also I'm not saying subs can't be on station tile at all, but I think it should be confined to the hangar tiles (Heavy Steel Plating) the same as pods as well as the ocean turf.

[Carbadox]

This discussion has happened before but it could easily be changed to make the buckshot pod weapon require ammo like the HE launcher attachment

[Wisecrack34]

I'd like to ask what the pros and cons of forcing subs into this role would be? Ignoring the shotgun sub being BS I have no opinion currently but I think it's an important discussion to have.

[zjdtmkhzt]

I feel like the best way to handle this would be to give nukie subs some kind of loud and obvious sound clue or something, so sec knows to activate their own subs before going into battle, if the nukies brought one.

[Sundance]

I feel like the best way to handle this would be to give nukie subs some kind of loud and obvious sound clue or something, so sec knows to activate their own subs before going into battle, if the nukies brought one.

Sec subs would get absolutely annihilated by nukie subs, 9/10

That said, subs being able to traverse the station seems like it's a unique thing for water maps, and i'd be sad to see to go away.

The best balance here has been suggested - either make the shotgun subs work on ammo OR give them a cooldown OR lower their shot rate OR change the bullets so they're not so stun oriented (you can get stunlocked and your guts annihilated if you get cornered by one of these).

Basically, nerf the gun, not the sub.

[Mouse]

A single taser burst will take out or at least nearly take out a nuke sub.

[warcrimes]

Here's my proposal:

Subs move on plating at regular speed, but the soft fragile floor tiles of the station crack and jam up the treads for a moment, probably represented via a 1s action bar to break the tiles and make them plating.

This retains a sub's advantage for area control, while nerfing their unimpeded juggernaut qualities.
Thoughts?

[KikiMofo]

Here's my proposal:

Subs move on plating at regular speed, but the soft fragile floor tiles of the station crack and jam up the treads for a moment, probably represented via a 1s action bar to break the tiles and make them plating.

This retains a sub's advantage for area control, while nerfing their unimpeded juggernaut qualities.
Thoughts?

[Drago156]

Here's my proposal:

Subs move on plating at regular speed, but the soft fragile floor tiles of the station crack and jam up the treads for a moment, probably represented via a 1s action bar to break the tiles and make them plating.

This retains a sub's advantage for area control, while nerfing their unimpeded juggernaut qualities.
Thoughts?

I think I can agree with this. Maybe have them make some sort of loud metallic scraping sound too to signify they're ripping up the tiling?

As for the sub thing in general and as a whole, if there are no sec (like the round i described, where pretty much only captain had a gun [I was a mechanic in the round]) it can be hard to effectively get a hold of a taser to deal with subs.

[Wisecrack34]

Ok, so is there any actual issues with the non-nuke subs? I feel like if you fire at a sub with any ranged projectile while in open oxygen it should apply the effects to the person inside to a lesser degree. I can see it being made so that in water it acts as normal, since water does slow down projectiles IRL. I feel this would fix the issues with people inside being too well protected whilst not causing issue to the people using them in the trench, thoughts?

[zjdtmkhzt]

I don't really feel like subs are ever an issue outside of nukie rounds, so I would hate to see their ability to drive around nerfed because of nukie rounds.

It should also be mentioned that aiming with a sub is way harder than aiming with held weapons as a human, so I really feel like subs are not as powerful as some people in this thread claim they are. You can stun people by hitting the sub, after all.

[aft2001]

Perhaps as a potential suggestion, have it so that subs and pods experience severe debuffs whilst on station outside of designated docking bays? Pods especially would take a bunch of damage from occasionally crashing into the floor, and would move much slower unless the area is depressurized.

Subs specifically could experience overheating due to the lack of flowing ocean water to cool down from, excluding pod bays with fancy AC or whatever, and would take gradual damage from being inside the station if they stay for long enough.

Alternatively, causing pod/sub weapons to fail or jam or whatever whilst in the atmosphere would also help.

The buckshot should 100% require ammo, though - it's ridiculous as to how good it is.