timegate security holy hell

[GORE]

Vice officer for 7? Detective should be at 13 as well since they start with a genuine firearm

Detective and Vice Officers are no real security officers.
Especially Detective. Detectives can spawn as antags and thus should not fall under the round-requirement in my opinion.

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Detectives = Discount Officers

[Wisecrack34]

Vice officer gets a full blown token I believe, so they are basically sec officers.

Ah that got fixed? Coulda sworn they didn't the other day

[Drago156]

Vice officer for 7? Detective should be at 13 as well since they start with a genuine firearm

Detective and Vice Officers are no real security officers.
Especially Detective. Detectives can spawn as antags and thus should not fall under the round-requirement in my opinion.

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Detectives = Discount Officers

No, no, and no.

Vice Officers should very well fall under the requirement considering their access to the same equipment as a normal officer and the 'officer' in their title.

Detective ABSOLUTELY should fall under the requirement, antag able or not, due to how actually powerful that revolver is. Not only do they get access to most of standard sec along with their thermals, revolver, and other various equipment, but they are actually lethal capable at range from roundstart unlike any other normal officer.

[GORE]

Anyone can lethal somebody without any rare equipment or complicated ways to gather tools to acomplish this.
A toolbox or a fire extinguisher is well enough.

If Vice Officers receive the same token treatment; sure put them under the same scrutiny - but I still disagree with the decision to hold the Detective to the same.

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If the revolver is the argument to timegate the Detective then let's continue round-banning the Captain for new players.

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Captain is a great role to learn the game and has really no expectations to fulfill within a normal round.
Still a Captain got powerful tools.

The Detective revolver argument is a slippery slope in my opinion.

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The Detective is supposed to be a pay for hire to support the security force; but betrays them sometimes.

[Technature]

I kind of have to agree with Drago on this one. Yeah, Tool Boxes and Fire Extinguishers can down someone pretty well, but even caught by surprise someone has a fighting chance against them.

The revolver, on the other hand? You'd need damn good reflexes to not get shot more than once, and if the detective REALLY wants you dead, he can just unload the entire clip and leave. People tend to die in seconds from that, and the detective has several places to replenish his lethal ammo if he knows what he's doing.

[GORE]

If he knows what he is doing he likely is not playing for the first time.

[Wisecrack34]

Ignoring the lethals, the detective does spawn with an equivalent to a stun gun/baton, marking them under the same web as general security for new players assuming more authority than they have, needing help to learn how to play whilst taking up sec's time, having a target on their back (Or more accurately put, their belt, from personal experience as a former det main).

On the topic of the Captain also spawning with a firearm, I personally feel like they fall under the same general web of having a target on their back, a false sense of dictatorship authority and being a serious detriment to the station as a whole if they're not educated on how to play (The floppy, their ID, etc.). While I won't advocate for them being timegated just yet as I'm probably in the vast minority on this opinion, I personally think a seperate thread should be dedicated to reworking them into such a position, seeing how every other head, even ignoring the HoS, is given FAR more respect than them.

But that's getting off topic, my issues with Captain are an entire separate issue that would derail this thread. I assumed Vice Officers didn't get tokens as just a few days ago I tried one and didn't get it so maybe my complaint got answered immediately. I think the issue of teaching controls to Sec has been solved with timegating the red department, along with preventing the issue of new officers bringing back the term shitcurity as a valid statement on Goon so I think we should wait, examin Security in a few weeks and see how it's cleared up.

Post Scriptum: When I talk about players being dickish officers, I'm not referring to people from other servers coming here and doing a quick "power trip and dash", that's an issue that's been regulated rather well by the admin team. I'm referring to new players who join and assume Sec is meant to be an overbearing presence with the sole job of "Stopping All Crime Forever" by perma-brigging a staff assistant for graffiti

[Technature]

To be more clear, the part I'm referring between Detectives knowing what they're doing and Detectives who just joined on a server at random to grief is knowing where they can get more lethal ammo, not how to unload an entire clip into a single person with no one noticing.

[Frank_Stein]

I see Detective as a Sec adjcent role.

It helps to be competent as one, but you also don't have the same level of expectations built into it

Which is why I think between them and Vice Officers, I think it would make sense to have a time gate but a lesser one

It'll let them work with Sec and see what that is like without having the player expectations that being an officer has.

[Studenterhue]

Ah yes, thank very much for the clarification Chayot.

Honestly, I presumed everyone was talking about all Sec roles, Security Officer, Detective, and Vice Officer (and HoS too, but it's already white-listed, so it's already well-vetted. Dunno about Lawyer) this whole time.

I wouldn't be opposed to timelocking them too, for they have a lot of the same problems I discussed: stressful and demanding learning environment that isn't good for newbies and loose grasp of rules and lack of experience & knowledge that, especially when combined with access to weapons and other means to taking people out of a round, can lead to major damage and lots of unfun. Detective has one slot though, and Vice Officer has only two and is restricted to one day, so there's less students to wrangle, though I'm sure most people would still prefer to teach a newbie Det or Vice Officer Sec rather than controls.

I think an argument could be made for Detective and Vice Officer having lower number of rounds required than Sec Officer, though maybe not 7. Vice Officers are expected to enforce (virtually nonexistent) laws related to drugs and food, so you need just knowledge of drugs and foods (in addition to usual knowledge of fair punishments), and Detectives need forensics skills, part of which is simple diligence and accounting, so not knowing much about the game is not as much as a liability because you don't need to know much in the first place. (Though you could easily say a similar argument for having the number of required rounds be same as Secoff's).

(I would like Vice Officer be reworked into a sort of intro-Sec or trainee-Sec too. But that's another thread.)

[KikiMofo]

This whole arguement over detective being too strong and needs timegating isn't what the timegate is for. Timegate is for making sure the player knows how to play the dang game before being a security officer. Its not because security officers are strong or something, it's just because I'm tired of sec officers not knowing how to play the game or going braindead in sec because they are brand new players and lost interest.

Anyway I think we should just push ahead with ALL RED ID JOBS get timegated for 13 rounds. Simple and clean. If it doesnt work out then we can adjust it with what jobs to take out of the timegate or lower or raise the amount of rounds. Its good to just get things moving you know? We won't know how it will work till its actually going on.

[Frank_Stein]

Anyway I think we should just push ahead with ALL RED ID JOBS get timegated for 13 rounds.

[vampirate]

Yeah, nobody plays detective how it's supposed to be played anyway. It's just sec with a better gun. If you're gonna time sec you gotta time detective.

[Brixx79]

Can we put a timegate on Nuke Ops as well? I know some people find it hilarious having the newbies flail about, but there's far too many times I've seen people not even know how to enter a pod. The amount of accidents with RPG's, mines, wasted ammo, etc. before even leaving the ship isn't really fun IMO.

[GORE]

FLUKEOPS is great.

During my first rounds of playing SS13 at all I enjoyed failing and learning in a horribly comedic manner during Nuke-Ops.
I doubt that ALL players learning this do not enjoy failing in a fun way. Like - some people sweat 150% into that mode but I just gonna say take that stress out...relax and have a fun time with the crew you got.
It is all about character and general approach to communication...more so than really anything else.
The journey is important. Flukeops is and always was a great journey.