Remove genetic things from lings entirely.

[DJ-Fireball_did_this]

Then we have to do the same for Vampires and Werewolves...also do not forget Vampire Thralls (which are Zombies...so...which WERE human in the past).

No, you don't. Stop conflating the two. Vamps and wolfies are both a great deal closer to humans than lings are. They use oxygen, are bipedal, mammals, have a spine, a single center of symmetry down the middle. Wolfies are also a terrible example since upon transformation they lose an assload of normal crew gear and will probably not get it back. They're limited in a much similar way almost permanently.

You make them different by substracting stuff that they can choose to do? Does not make sense to me,...

...yes? Genes are a thing traitors can use. If lings couldn't, that would be a difference. Yes it's a choice to act functionally identical to traitors but c'mon, they always pick it. Lings not just looting for human weapons and shit are almost rare.

You could also give every traitor the option to buy a device that makes them into a ling. Or give every uplink access to every job's syndicate items. Those would be choices but they'd still suck and destroy the difference between antagonists. Making something a "choice" doesn't inherently mean it will cause diversity or not do the exact opposite.

[GORE]

Lings have a fun time experimenting with the various genetic mutations that their victims had activated. That is a thing that other traitors cannot do.

They can have like 6 sets of identities so 6 gene-sets available to them.

---

Also vampires are hurt by a HOLY PLACE (chapel) and can turn into a bat. This is not human. Definitely not human.

[DJ-Fireball_did_this]

All humans in SS13 can turn into animals via magic.

[TheMaskedMan2]

UNSTRUCTURED CHANGELING RAMBLINGS INCOMING

I'm going to go on a slight ramble about the feel and atmospher of Changelings and how I really think they are in a poor place currently. Now every Antag in my opinion has it's little "Place" in the theming of things. Traitors are normal crew but secretly bad. Werewolves are rampage machines, Blobs are whatever the hell, and Revs drive the theme of their rounds as well. In practice I find Changelings are not only unfun ooc'ly, but they overlap far too much with Traitor. In practice, Changeling does not feel like a horror movie monster theme, it feels like a normal dude with superpowers.

A good changeling is almost identical to a traitor except instead of gadgets it has Neuro (Sleepy pen), stealth identities (dna scrambler/voice changer), a heal, and shambler. Shambler is the only thing that gets slightly close to a more unique feel, and if you ask me I think Changeling should be entirely reworked. Critters are thematically interesting but far too weak in practice for their cost. I have some ideas for that, I may structure this more in it's own spreadsheet or a forum post but i'm going to spitball a few of the ideas I have here.

Problem: Changelings feel like traitors with a small twist, and fighting against them isn't really that fun. It feels like a human with powers, not a scary monster pretending to be a human. If every antag has a theme it tries to go for, i'd argue Changeling should shoot for "Spooky/Horror/Paranoia" Disregarding balance here's a few basic ideas. Up the body horror, less stun baton sec man with stings. Ideally people should know there's a ling without knowing who it is.

1. Rework it's abilities and how absorbing works. A current idea I am a fan of is that Ling would have two forms it can switch between. Stealth Form and Assimilation Form. It's stealth form is similar to normal humans, with a few more stealthy sneaky abilities, a nerfed neurotoxin sting. The interesting thing I would like is if it's human form was actually weaker than normal baseline humans. This is just a disguise - if it gets caught out it would have to transform and go spook mode.

The Assimilation Form wouldn't be a full shambler, but it'd be an interesting body horror creature with tentacles and other such. A sort of inbetween, with entirely different abilities - as well it would be completely anonymous and perhaps the Lings clothes could stay on underneath the flesh. You would have to transform into this form in order to assimilate people. Strong enough to 1v1 people and eat them, more fun abilities akin to Vampire and a louder approach. So ideally the ling would sting someone for a short stun, get them alone, go spook mode - if it's called out, it can escape and nobody knows who it is still. I also think Husked people should be glued to the floor as a permanent horror movie murder scene so you know "SOMEBODY DIED"

2. Hivemind and Absorbed people. Critters are neat, but I feel we can take the paranoia further. I think an ideal situation is for lings to feel like a spreading paranoia and people distrusting eachother instead of just a single person. So I think an ability should allow Lings to inject one of its husked areas for a cost or high tier ability - to put someone from its hivemind into it. It would gestate as a fleshy spooky coccoon before "hatching" back into the person eaten. Essentially as a doppelganger. They aren't very strong, and can turn into a form that looks identical to the lings assimilation form, but can't assimilate and is nerfed a bit. This would result in more paranoia as "Anyone could be it" instead of just the ling having to vomit out limbs that keep dying.

tl;dr - Changeling should be more body horror and have more spooky horror movie shit to add to the round. It might be a much more "intense" antag than it currently is, more along the line of rev rounds, but it would be fucking fun like a horror movie. Also this is just ideas, obviously not super balanced out well.

[BlackPhoenix]

If they are able to consume and use human DNA, why would they not be able to use human genes and the traits they cause? Like...what? That logic doesn't work out, friend.

As for making them "functionally any different", they can't use their PDA to order in traitor items. Their traitor items are their stings and toxin spits and shapeshifting. They also have a very different objective if you're trying to "win".

This is a bad idea, friend. Just let it go.

[DJ-Fireball_did_this]

If they are able to consume and use human DNA, why would they not be able to use human genes and the traits they cause? Like...what? That logic doesn't work out, friend.

Ok maybe it makes sense for if they get the genes from eating somebody, but not if it's from genetics fuckery. And a bunch of the genes would logically only work for humans, and can only be given to humans. Eating human DNA and replicating how it looks externally ≠ actually being anything like that DNA.

As for making them "functionally any different", they can't use their PDA to order in traitor items.

Ok so it's functionally identical to a hardmode traitor.

Their traitor items are their stings and toxin spits and shapeshifting.

Ok I guess they are functionally identical to a normal traitor. Nevermind.

They also have a very different objective if you're trying to "win".

Too bad nobody ever does.

This is a bad idea, friend.

You can tell by the three pages of nonsensical and/or conflicting explanations as to why.

[GORE]

I still have yet to hear for a good reason why Changelings should not be able to use mutations?

---

---

@TheMaskedMan2 Yeah body horror is always nice.

[DJ-Fireball_did_this]

To give them a character different from traitors and because it doesn't make in-universe sense.

[BlackPhoenix]

Ok maybe it makes sense for if they get the genes from eating somebody, but not if it's from genetics fuckery. And a bunch of the genes would logically only work for humans, and can only be given to humans. Eating human DNA and replicating how it looks externally ≠ actually being anything like that DNA.

There's literally nothing that says they don't have genetic structure capable of using genes implanted in them in the same way a human would, especially when taking human form. You're trying to make up backstory and information about a creature that part of the point is we don't actually know how it works. The best we have is that it escaped from some sort of bio-lab that Nanotrasen runs, and even that much isn't -that- clear, it's just from the printout that happens at the start of the round. Your headcanon isn't necessarily true.

Ok so it's functionally identical to a hardmode traitor.

Ok I guess they are functionally identical to a normal traitor. Nevermind.

I mean. One could argue that Wizards are also this, as well as...literally any antagonist that isn't a blob? If you really want to reduce it down to "An entity that is given tools to do bad things to the crew"? "Instead of traitor items they get spells" "Instead of traitor items they get vampire powers", etcetera. 

Too bad nobody ever does.

I've found that actually, most people try to complete their objective as an antagonist unless they're a traitor with some particularly difficult or boring objective. It gives a good structure to what you should do. Changelings/Vampires especially do, as it literally benefits them and makes them more powerful to do so.

You can tell by the three pages of nonsensical and/or conflicting explanations as to why.

I think you're the only one who thinks any of the replies to you have been nonsensical. There's really no point trying to convince you that you're wrong here, I guess, aside from the fact that I don't think a single person has really agreed that this should be a thing. It sounds to me like you got fucked up by one or a few changelings with Genetic powers and like...I'm sorry, I guess? That's not a good enough reason, though.

[GORE]

100% siding with BlackPhoenix here - but I also think there could be some sweet changes in the future like @MaskedMan2 put forward.
Making Changeling more RP friendly has been a concern of some folks around.

[BlackPhoenix]

I feel like Changeling can be pretty thematic and scary on Roleplay servers when done right, but being more able to do that would be dope I agree.

[DJ-Fireball_did_this]

There's literally nothing that says they don't have genetic structure capable of using genes implanted in them in the same way a human would, especially when taking human form. You're trying to make up backstory and information about a creature that part of the point is we don't actually know how it works. The best we have is that it escaped from some sort of bio-lab that Nanotrasen runs, and even that much isn't -that- clear, it's just from the printout that happens at the start of the round. Your headcanon isn't necessarily true.

It's not "making up backstory", the game says their true form is akin to a shambler which looks like a bug. And they do a bunch of utterly inhuman things when in human form. And we know that genetics is good for human-y things because NT supplies medical with them. So, logically, a changeling should not work with SS13's on-site genetics technology.

I mean. One could argue that Wizards are also this, as well as...literally any antagonist that isn't a blob? If you really want to reduce it down to "An entity that is given tools to do bad things to the crew"? "Instead of traitor items they get spells" "Instead of traitor items they get vampire powers", etcetera. 

An antagonist is generally somebody who has been given special tools and a griefing license. Different antagonists are given different limitations and tools so they're different from eachother. The problem is, with the current tools ling has, it's not very different from traitors. This isn't a blob-exclusive thing. Except maybe like spy compared traitor, all of the antagonists have different abilities and limitations. And even those two are given different objectives. None of this is even the point. The point is you're moving goalposts. So far I've been told that ling is different from traitor, and that all of the antagonists are traitor. Which is it?

I've found that actually, most people try to complete their objective as an antagonist unless they're a traitor with some particularly difficult or boring objective. It gives a good structure to what you should do. Changelings/Vampires especially do, as it literally benefits them and makes them more powerful to do so.

When was the last time you saw a ling that didn't just use all the same non-uplink objects to kill everybody? Yeah sure ling has powers but they're not that big of a difference.
As noted, memestings are just a sleepy pen.
Shambler lasts really short and/or is almost only found on the shuttle.
Limb critters never do anything besides get ignored via crew apathy.
etc.
So that loops us back to the objectives. Which are different from traitors technically but in practice it's about the same. It's still "kill people" but with the added step of eating them. Traitors are really the ones with interesting objectives, but they frequently just resort to killing everybody. Ofc they can get away with it since that's kinda their gimmick.

I think you're the only one who thinks any of the replies to you have been nonsensical. There's really no point trying to convince you that you're wrong here, I guess, aside from the fact that I don't think a single person has really agreed that this should be a thing. It sounds to me like you got fucked up by one or a few changelings with Genetic powers and like...I'm sorry, I guess? That's not a good enough reason, though.

Well, that didn't happen. I'm not sure what to tell you beyond that.

[BlackPhoenix]

 

It's not "making up backstory", the game says their true form is akin to a shambler which looks like a bug. And they do a bunch of utterly inhuman things when in human form. And we know that genetics is good for human-y things because NT supplies medical with them. So, logically, a changeling should not work with SS13's on-site genetics technology.

I disagree that the horror form looks like a bug, and there is also nothing to say that is its "true form". If you really want to base your idea off of The Thing, we never really saw its true form, just the forms it took in order to best utilize the shapes and abilities of everything it had consumed. Your logic is bad, there's no reason it couldn't have human genes as part of its assumedly incredibly complex SCIENCE FICTION dna sequence, and that those genes couldn't be modified. Moreover, there is no reason it couldn't use the genetics genes in exactly the same way it uses an absorbed human's genetic materials. It's all genes, my dude. 

An antagonist is generally somebody who has been given special tools and a griefing license. Different antagonists are given different limitations and tools so they're different from eachother. The problem is, with the current tools ling has, it's not very different from traitors. This isn't a blob-exclusive thing. Except maybe like spy compared traitor, all of the antagonists have different abilities and limitations. And even those two are given different objectives. None of this is even the point. The point is you're moving goalposts. So far I've been told that ling is different from traitor, and that all of the antagonists are traitor. Which is it?

My point was that by your pointlessly broad definition used to try and claim Changeling is basically just a traitor, any antagonist could be called "basically just a traitor". I don't think really anyone would agree that Changeling is "not very different from traitors". 

When was the last time you saw a ling that didn't just use all the same non-uplink objects to kill everybody? Yeah sure ling has powers but they're not that big of a difference.
As noted, memestings are just a sleepy pen.
Shambler lasts really short and/or is almost only found on the shuttle.
Limb critters never do anything besides get ignored via crew apathy.
etc.

This is literally all wrong, and also the hell is a "memesting"? Neurotoxic Sting? That isn't a sleepy pen, it's a more limited in use but endless in supply ability. Shambler is most often used as an end of round rampage, yeah, but it is also regularly used as a "this has all gone to shit and I'm being caught" rampage ability to escape and get a few kills on the way. Limb critters...I don't think I've ever seen them "ignored". Crew try hard to kill them, and often get pretty badly wrecked by them. Plus, they're a way to let the victims of the Changeling continue having fun, that's a good thing and something Traitor can't boast.

So that loops us back to the objectives. Which are different from traitors technically but in practice it's about the same. It's still "kill people" but with the added step of eating them. Traitors are really the ones with interesting objectives, but they frequently just resort to killing everybody. Ofc they can get away with it since that's kinda their gimmick.

I mean, what exactly do you want the difference to be if not "do the changeling thing to some people" rather than "Steal X" or "Assassinate X"? If you care so much about the fluff and thematic nature of it all, the Changeling objective is quite literally the most fitting thing to them. Absorb DNA. Escape to a source of more DNA when the round ends. 

I'm not going to talk in loops with you, man. If you find somebody who agrees with this, I'll chat with them I guess? So far, nobody seems to agree, so maybe you should consider that if everyone else is wrong, it might be you that's wrong.

[Frank_Stein]

UNSTRUCTURED CHANGELING RAMBLINGS INCOMING

 ...................

tl;dr - Changeling should be more body horror and have more spooky horror movie shit to add to the round. It might be a much more "intense" antag than it currently is, more along the line of rev rounds, but it would be fucking fun like a horror movie. Also this is just ideas, obviously not super balanced out well.

Hey.

I like all of that

[DJ-Fireball_did_this]

It's honestly a little confusing that you're acting like I'm dense and have "bad logic" because I'm not forcing ling into your weird comic-book perception of how aliens would work. Especially after you went to all that trouble to call me "friend" twice in a row.