Nerf/Remove self surgery?

[Dickles]

There's a lot of strong benefits. You can move faster, break cuffs, more stamina and the organs have a lot of nice bonuses. Never lose that katana again.

Right now, it's pretty easy to do surgery on yourself. Well, once you're used to it and if you have meds, and keep an eye on your blood. Only real risky one is trying to replace your heart. 

I think you should fumble a lot more. Like, way more. If you have painkiller in your system you're only going to fumble a few times if you replace all your organs and limbs. If surgery is something you want and know how to do, it's worth those few fumbles to do it yourself. Finding someone who knows how to do it and is willing to takes a lot more time. Self surgery should be more on par with this. More fumbles mean you're going to lose more blood, and you'll have to wait for that to come up. Will need more meds too.

I wouldn't mind if self surgery was removed completely either, but I don't know how other people feel about that. I think it would increase the amount of interaction you get with doctors. I see a lot of people just stop by robotics sometimes to give themselves treads or something because, hey, why not? Only takes a minute and you move a lot faster. Why try to get someone else to do it when they might kill you in the process; asking someone probably takes longer than the whole procedure.

[Carbadox]

id make it so that self surgery does extreme damage to you so that you can't get further than cutting your arm off with out getting into crit. Like that, if someone need to reattach a limb due to any reason they can do so with ease. To give themselves c sabers arms or robo limb themselves? not so much

[Lady Birb]

If you try to staple a csaber or katana to your arm it should cut itself off and insult you for being dishonorable.

[saccharineChampion]

I don't believe removing self surgery entirely would so much see a surge of interaction with doctors, more that it would lead to a decrease in self-surgery overall and that anybody who continues doing it would more likely try to grab the first person they see to get them to help.

In my personal experience, it's extremely inconsistent whether there's doctors hanging around medbay who aren't already doing their own thing. The sort of person who currently self-surgeries is not, I believe, the sort of person who would usually bank on that inconsistency and who would try to get the attention of doctors if they are present. Consider also that you can do surgery with nothing more than a bar table and utensils.

That being said - I believe making self-surgery more difficult per your initial proposal would be the best way to go. As it currently as, trying to self-surgery all your limbs without using meds until you're finished with all of the limbs is a formidable challenge; I believe that level of difficulty could be extended to being the difficulty of doing one limb alone. With preparation, of course, it'll be easier, but at that point it'd be easier for most folk to just get a doctor to help. Without preparation, it'd be very dangerous to do just one limb - but still possible, especially with just meds it's easy to get your mitts on. More fumbles are the best way to do that; perhaps with also dealing more brute and/or bleed if doing self-surgery specifically.

As for item arms, the blacklist should, imo, be greatly expanded. I think the best place for the mechanic would be utility items + silly stuff (instruments, rubber duckies, useless gadgets) + chainsaws being the possible attachments, and excluding weapon items. If memory serves, the blacklist as-is covers wizard staves and some nukie weapons.

[TDHooligan]

as a science regular, the problem with forcing interaction with doctors is just that - you can easily be stuck for 10+ minutes with an incompetent doctor, and while that's sometimes a good thing on slow rounds, i often find myself with a missing limb because someone's blown up science for the umpteenth time, more than 80% of the time it's MUCH faster for me to just break into surgery, get the limb on and go back to doing what i was before.

I think that requiring anaesthetic like morphine or N2O for organ and limb removal - note, not limb replacement - would be better. Instead of increasing the costs, you could instead be at risk of passing out from a morphine overdose with a bleeding wound should you attempt to do all your surgeries at once.

[Drago156]

I am very strongly against completely nerfing or removing self surgery entirely. On lower pop rounds there is rarely a medical doctor around and even more rarely than not do they actually know what they're doing to properly do surgery on you and not kill you in the process. I'd rather not be forced into situations where it's a 50/50 on whether not I'm being treated by a competent doctor or not, if I get treated at all.

On the terms of forcing interaction, it won't, most people find their own bullshit way of doing things anyhow without doctors as is, and just nerfing it will raise the amount of turbonerd effort put into being able to successfully perform self surgery. Interaction will happen or it won't, but forcing it isn't always the best way to go.

Finally, perhaps the issue here isn't self surgery per say, more so certain objects with self surgery. Maybe instead of nerfing self surgery entirely certain items could just not be attachable to limbs at all or require some kind of extra step or modification specially made to fit an amputated limb.

[saccharineChampion]

Can you elaborate what you mean by "completely nerfing"/"nerfing X entirely" and how it differs from removal and from other nerfs?

Also note that the possibilities are not just meddoc vs. selfsurgery, but also being operated on by a nondoctor. Even if selfsurgery were nerfed, the third option would still be viable, and isn't as scarce as being operated on by a doctor.

Nerfs (as opposed to removal) aren't so much to force interaction, but to encourage it. I don't deny "turbonerds" will just put in more effort, but that's okay. Ideally the nerfs will encourage others. I don't believe nerfs will only have the effect of increasing "turbonerd effort"; especially for more casual goofing around, people will likely just rope in other folk. And again, this isn't necessarily just doctors being roped in.

If the issue is certain objects with self surgery, that's still fundamentally tied to selfsurgery itself and can be adjusted by fiddling with selfsurgery. I do agree some more fiddling with individual items would be good, but I disagree it's the end-all of adjustments.

[kyle2143]

Removing self-surgery will never happen as long as I'm around. But I agree it could use a "nerf". Several months ago it was changed when the rest/standing system got a behind the scenes rework and part of that change made it impossible to do self-surgery the old way. In order to preserve self surgery it was changed to what it is now where you must simply be standing on a bed or optable.

Before there was a bit of nuance to it, where you sort of exploitef the rest/standing mechanic. Here, I think we need to add nuance or additional mechanics to it instead of just increasing damages and such.

[Frank_Stein]

I think limiting the ability to remove your own limbs to require some chemical courage, I.E. pain pills and/booze would work.

Neither are hard to get, work thematically, don't place limitations on repairing yourself, and still encourages some player interaction with bartender and what not

[Nnystyxx]

i already get mad drunk and do surgery on myself standing up, only weaklings need a surgical table

[Lady Birb]

Something that was said on the discord that I agree with is that armstapling items should be limited only to silly and/or utility items, and ALL weapons, melee or ranged, should be blacklisted from armstapling, with the exception of chainsaws because they were usable before universal armstapling was a thing.

[Mouse]

The chainsaw should be an option. It's a classic.

[Lady Birb]

The chainsaw should be an option.  It's a classic.

Yeah that too. Edited my post.

[Mouse]

Well, either self-surgery got nerfed, I have atrocious luck, or the Medical Training trait makes surgery fuck up more because Jesus.

[Trustworthy]

Self surgery should be very risky unless you've got the medical training trait and/or are under the effect of morphine or ethanol, in my opinion. Just up the chances of failure and increase the damage a tad, and its fine.