Opinions about making combat less stun-centric

[Carbadox]

No ideas or suggestions, just a collection of thoughts I’ve had about the combat system and similar.

The main point of the post is just about how important stuns are during combat. They’re a vital part of it and it makes sense but at times it feels like they’re a bit too good. I don’t mean that in the number of ways that one can be stunned (eg tables, plates, wrahsling etc) but more about how not matter how good of an arsenal of weapons you have, if you get shot with a taser you’re absolutely fucked and have no counter play. The next thing that’s necessary is the stun baton to seal your fate that you are now busted and at the will of your predator, whether that be security officer or traitor. 

Sure, you could say that the counter play is the fact that you can outrun the shots, but that’s not a counter that’s just evading an attack. A counter is how wearing sunglasses, welding masks or SecHuds protects you from flashes. The only reason this really irks me is that there’s so many tools that are not used in situations where they would work perfectly. 

As an example, if there was a change where theoretically Nuke Ops armour would insulate against taser shots (kevlar is an electrical insulator, right?), Security would have to go further than simply pew pewing the bad guys down. Armoury grenades, the riot launcher, barriers, they’re all thing that end up being underused because of the over-reliance (in my opinion) of the taser. Maybe there’d finally be a chance to let those items shine.

On the other hand, if it’s not broken don’t fix it. If this has been a system that’s been in place for a while, then why bother messing with it? I don’t have any good suggestions that would really “fix” anything in my opinion but I might as well throw out an idea I had about insulating armour like in the example above, where the effects of stun items would be less effective on you, a la Human SMES but as an item.

[UrsulaMejor]

The "counter" you're looking for is stimulant drugs like meth and whatever the hell is in syndicate donk pockets. Notably, the Medic nuke class comes with the second thing as part of their kit.

I know that doesn't help everyone in every situation due to unequal access to stimulant drugs, but not everyone has easy access to sunglasses, either.

most "stuns" in the game also work on the stamina system now, tasers included. something as simple as eating a salad or a meatball sandwich will buy you one extra stun baton or taser hit before you're locked down forever.

[Kak0phony]

Yeah I think Stimulant drugs and food buffs are definitely and underrated strategy for dealing with stuns. I wish it saw more use.

[Sundance]

I'm heavily divided on this... I see no easy fix.

On the one hand, any change to stuns would upset the status quo with security on the station. There needs to be a force, so to speak to face off to antagonists and keep the station safe. It's effectively the bread and butter "stopping power" to antagonists and any changes to stuns, not withstanding, by the way, the excellent changes the admins with input from the wider community as a whole made to stuns to keep it interesting. This kinda stuff is what makes Goon good.

On the other hand, the basic stun is indeed boring and therefore more can and should be done. 

Therefore I don't think the issue is purely based of the stun mechanic. I think the issue is with HOW people are stunned. Which is a point you raised in the main post... Which basically revolves around the taser and the stun baton. 

I don't think neither of these should be nerfed. They already have been. I think everything else should be slightly buffed. Especially defensive mechanics (NOT including drugs btw) 

Again this is conjecture and there's no easy fix, and would require small introductions to code.

[Carbadox]

I was originally actually gonna mentions stims in the thread but it’s a weird one in my opinion. It seems like a ridiculous exaggeration compared to flashes. Flashes are balanced around the fact that they’re a bit of a cheap and easily stun tool to get and use but they’re balanced by the fact that if you actually try, it’s also easily countered with sunglasses. Not to mention that there is like a 1:5 ratio of civilian access flashes to civilian access sunglasses (not counting security and head of staff flashes + sechuds and head of staff glasses)

Where as the method to fighting tasers and stun batons is... to produce highly illicit narcotics? The train of thought to wearing glasses makes logical sense. Using meth just seems taking advantage of wierd game mechanics.

[Leeanei]

Since stuns are stamina based, you have to boost your stamina. Anything that boosts your stamina will increase your resistance to stuns. It's pretty plain in game mechanics how it works if you keep an eye on your UI. There's actually a lot of ways to mitigate stuns in game right now, and most of them are open to anyone. I also suggest just getting use to evading stun weapons. It's supposed to be bad news if security shows up while you are up to no good! A viable threat keeps the game interesting to antags.

Oh and a lot of officers use the riot cannon! It just has a high potential for collateral so generally the taser is a safer option than catching the antag and a half dozen other people in stinger fragments.

[Drago156]

So I have to say the biggest problem IMO is the fact it is linked to stamina, if you try sprinting in any way or form, you're instantly downed by a teaser and the second shot puts you at a 15-20 second stun, capping at 30 seconds with any further taser shots. Wouldn't be so bad if the taser alone didn't stun for that much, where as a baton would since reasons.

[UrsulaMejor]

Sprinting making you weak to stuns is a deliberate design mechanic. You should be sprinting away from fights, not into them.

flashes are easy to get and medium difficulty to counter (public sunglasses are limited in number so most people won't have one)

tasers are less easy to get and harder to counter. this seems fair.

if you don't want to make meth, eat a salad and work out. Also, get better at not getting hit by the taser in the first place. use cover. dodge around. getting hit once isn't a death sentence, so don't get hit twice.

focus on dodging until they waste all their ammo, then retaliate.

also, take the athlete trait. it's better than you think. that extra stamina is capital G Good since stamina is more your health bar than your real health bar.

[Technature]

I think the thing with the bad balance is cause the game was never built with combat in mind.

Sure, there are obviously things that ARE combat, but most reliable weapons either kill fast when they hit or reliably incapacitate someone for a long amount of time, sometimes without the victim having any way of knowing until it's too late.

As mentioned earlier, there is no easy way to fix it, as game changes with stuns in mind can potentially turn security into a joke.

As a note, I'm aware of Nuke Ops, but how often is it a good idea to try to arrest a Nukie?

[Kak0phony]

As a note, I'm aware of Nuke Ops, but how often is it a good idea to try to arrest a Nukie?

Far better to incapacitate them than to kill them, since they all have microbombs. I usually stun, strip, then space if possible.

[mbc]

i've been planning to rework the way some stun reductions (like meth) work - instead of lowering your stun timer every life() tick they would instead reduce stuns on the moment of application by some amount or percentage.

There's a possibility here of making heavy armor sets do some disorient reduction as well (currently heavy armor slows you down so much that its a pretty bad choice in any fight where stuns are involved and i feel like this would make it a more viable option)

[Frank_Stein]

Stuns have very specific purpose for Security: Keeping someone still long enough to put cuffs on them

I think in order to make combat less stun centric, you need ways to do that that don't involve full stuns. 

I suggest making limb targeting more important, with new statuses that can be applied by using certain weapons on certain body areas. For instance, a blow to an unprotected head with a heavy object could cause a concussion which disorients actions and movements.

Second, I think grabs and grappling could use a bit more complexity. Strangling is the only advanced move we have when it comes to grabs: Why not pins or locks? How about tackles to catch and hold onto a moving target? 

Stuns serve as a simple answer, but with more ways to accomplish a goal that stuns serve, you can make stuns less powerful while making fights more varied

[UrsulaMejor]

instead of strangling, the third tier grab could be a two handed limb lock if you're targeting the victim's arms. trying to resist out spends stamina of the person holding you instead of being random; they let go when they run out of energy to hold you.

[Wisecrack34]

^^^^^

[phyvo]

instead of strangling, the third tier grab could be a two handed limb lock if you're targeting the victim's arms. trying to resist out spends stamina of the person holding you instead of being random; they let go when they run out of energy to hold you.

This makes a lot of sense and seems like it's the right direction, but I wonder how much a two handed grab would be used when cuffing your target is so important. Being unable to do anything but hold your target basically means that the grab only functions when someone else is with you. I just struggle to think of how to use this aside from spacing someone, you just can't get much done by yourself.

Of course, if you could hold someone down for a long time so that someone could hear your radio call and come assist you, that'd be different. But then it would be more useful for the crew than solo, uncoordinated antags, which might be good, but still leaves antags with only their abilities and stolen tasers/batons.