Remove hiding under tables from monkeys

[Berrik]

As a stopgap measure it might be a good idea to remove test subject latejoin.

[Silvercloud29]

As a stopgap measure it might be a good idea to remove test subject latejoin.

It's not really that though. as one particular person, who I won't name but you know who I am talking about. Will spawn as whatever job they want for the round. sprint to genetics and absolutely harass them to become a monkey, or simply just do it themselves. It has nothing to do with the test subject job.

[Mouse]

If monkeys do need a nerf besides having their ability to hide under tables removed (and as much as I like it people definitely abuse the shit out of it), how about removing their ability to wear shoes and gloves? Their hands and feet aren't the same shape as human hands and feet after all.

Another thing that might help is being way more aggressive at killing griefing monkeys. Remind the shitheads that if you're playing someone who anyone can kill for no reason whatsoever then you'd better damn well be as helpful as possible. That's the environment I learned how to monkey in.

[polivilas]

If monkeys do need a nerf besides having their ability to hide under tables removed (and as much as I like it people definitely abuse the shit out of it), how about removing their ability to wear shoes and gloves?  Their hands and feet aren't the same shape as human hands and feet after all.

Another thing that might help is being way more aggressive at killing griefing monkeys.  Remind the shitheads that if you're playing someone who anyone can kill for no reason whatsoever then you'd better damn well be as helpful as possible.  That's the environment I learned how to monkey in.

Monkeys are protected within full strength of rule 1, and killing them, you guessed, is a rule violation.

I also challenge you to kill a powergaming captain monkey without getting murdered yourself.

[Drago156]

So here's how I see it, if someone is being an absolute griefing shit, the crew has the right to mob them, and if the end result is their death, nothing lost. Rules don't protect people breaking them or pushing them, and if someone is going to be a griefing ass, they deserve to be mobbed and killed. This doesn't mean however that you should kill anyone and everyone who pokes at you.

[Dickles]

So here's how I see it, if someone is being an absolute griefing shit, the crew has the right to mob them, and if the end result is their death, nothing lost. Rules don't protect people breaking them or pushing them, and if someone is going to be a griefing ass, they deserve to be mobbed and killed. This doesn't mean however that you should kill anyone and everyone who pokes at you.

Usually people that go monkey to powergame are validhunters not griefers. I haven't seen it much recently thankfully, but I have memories of quite a few rounds with monkies decked out hunting antags. Was worse when there was a mailchute straight to the armoury they could grab riot gear pretty easy.

[jaydunc]

im against removing their hiding under tables ability. I'd suggest instead that if you smack a table with a stun baton (perhaps on disarm or grab intent) that it stuns the monkey hiding underneath, which would solve the problem while retaining the cuteness of monkey table hiding.

[polivilas]

So here's how I see it, if someone is being an absolute griefing shit, the crew has the right to mob them, and if the end result is their death, nothing lost. Rules don't protect people breaking them or pushing them, and if someone is going to be a griefing ass, they deserve to be mobbed and killed. This doesn't mean however that you should kill anyone and everyone who pokes at you.

Any actual griefing gets dealt with by admins.
Anything below, it is dealt with by `This means that you shouldn't kill people for annoying you mildly or inconveniencing you, but only if they are actual threats/a cluwne.`
Most of them aren't actual threats but rather major annoyances (see - validhunting, just being a jerk without intention to kill, stealing all access, etc) and thus protected by rule 1.

[Technature]

Actually, they're not. If they can confirm somehow that the person is definitely an antag, then they're free to murder them.

If you see a ling eating someone, have someone's PDA set to traitor buying stuff, or see a wizard existing, they're not protected by rule 1, even if that ling clearly changed and ate a monkey and no one else, the PDA owner in question is holding a tournament for willful participants to steal his wrestling belt from him, or the wizard is doing nothing but striking up friendly conversations.

The only friendly people who should be legally griefed on should be cluwnes, as not only is that the point of cluwning, but because being a cluwne is a very miserable experience and you're just doing them a favor to be honest.

[polivilas]

Actually, they're not.  If they can confirm somehow that the person is definitely an antag, then they're free to murder them.

If you see a ling eating someone, have someone's PDA set to traitor buying stuff, or see a wizard existing, they're not protected by rule 1, even if that ling clearly changed and ate a monkey and no one else, the PDA owner in question is holding a tournament for willful participants to steal his wrestling belt from him, or the wizard is doing nothing but striking up friendly conversations.

The only friendly people who should be legally griefed on should be cluwnes, as not only is that the point of cluwning, but because being a cluwne is a very miserable experience and you're just doing them a favor to be honest.

It is almost as if rule 1 has this 'If someone is confirmed (via game mechanics) to be an antagonist, is a cluwne, <...>, you can go after them.'.
Moreover, most of the monkeys in question aren't even antags in the first place.

[Roomba]

If this thread is entirely about That One Guy Everyone Is Trying Very Hard Not To Name, perhaps it would be better just bringing up That Guy to the admins, because a powergaming monkey who knows what rules they can bend will keep on doing it regardless of how many of their toys you take away, while they spoil the fun for everyone else.

[Mr. Green]

If this thread is entirely about That One Guy Everyone Is Trying Very Hard Not To Name, perhaps it would be better just bringing up That Guy to the admins, because a powergaming monkey who knows what rules they can bend will keep on doing it regardless of how many of their toys you take away, while they spoil the fun for everyone else.

When did i become Voldemort? But anyways, i'm working on a post, but it's "a bit" longer, since the discussion is a tad one-sided so far.

[Mr. Green]

Well, i just joined the forum and this was one of the first post i stumbled upon. Quite fascinating to read from a "monkey-main's" perspective, tho it also seems rather one-sided. That being said, i appreciate the effort some people have shown to be constructive, rather then just shouting "nerf monkeys into the ground", when its quite obvious some people enjoy playing monkeys. This is gonna be a bit of a longer post since i'd like to go into a few things that have been said so far.

Frankly, the fact that monkey's few downsides (primarily not being able to speak) can be circumvented stupidly easily, and with it being a net gain for powergaming, is quite dumb.
I agree in at the very least, re-examining player-monkeys overall, but removing table-hiding would be a decent start.

I also agree with it being a good idea to re-examine monkeys. I does seem to me however that a lot of the people that have chimed in so far do not actually have a lot of experience with playing as a monkey. For example, the "monkey's few downsides"-argument is one i hear very often. Altho i agree with the fact that in their current form the upsides monkeys get can make them not fun to fight in certain situations, i'd like to go into their less obvious downsides first, for the sake of fairness.
First of all the most obvious one, the fact that they can't communicate with humans.

people who play monkey like this don't really care about communication

That is something that i've heard quite often, and while i can only speak for myself, this is just not true (if it wasn't obvious from the length of this post). First of all i think emotes can go quite far in basic communication, but apart from that there is also the option to use the pda messenger, which i use a lot. Now this has led others to believe that this downside "can be circumvented stupidly easily", and altho i agree that this is the case in most contexts, it's still more of a hassle to communicate like that. For example during solar flares the pda messenger is practically unusable. The main situation where this is a downside however is when u are getting attacked. I'd argue that the ability to yell for help can be a real lifesaver, and while being attacked, especially while being stunned, this option is severely limited as a monkey. As a monkey-main i accept this downside, and since the logic behind it makes sense to me i see no reason for it to be changed.

Another less obvious downside monkeys have is the fact that monkey can't be consumed by lings and that vampires can't drink their blood. Now this might come off as an upside, but this fact usually results in a one-way ticket to space, and i'd personally argue that either being part of a hive or being a zombie beats just being taken out of the round early by quite a bit. If monkeys do get a re-examination, i would suggest a change is made so that player-monkeys can be consumed by lings and vampires are able to drink their blood, as if they were human.

It's not really that though. as one particular person, who I won't name but you know who I am talking about. Will spawn as whatever job they want for the round. sprint to genetics and absolutely harass them to become a monkey, or simply just do it themselves. It has nothing to do with the test subject job.

Hey, that's me! I don't mind being named and i'd like to think i'm usually quite polite about asking to be monkified. As said, there are basicly 2 ways of becoming a monkey. Either late-join, hope test subject is available and start with no access whatsoever and basicly be guaranteed that you aren't an antag or through genetics. Before the gene booth was a thing, it could often take 15 minutes to become a monkey if there isn't a geneticist to help out and since i often play on low-pop hours that was very often. Luckily we got blessed with the power of the gene booth and now it usually only takes a few minutes, even on low-pop. Also since i'm known as a monkey-main by now, usually if there are people around they are really helpful (thanks!). Once again this is just something that you have to accept if you wanna be a monkey-main.

This does bring us to a counter-argument i would like to make against some of the previous posts calling for a general monkey nerf and the people that equate playing as a monkey to powergaming. There are quite a few things in this game that can be used to your advantage, if you know how and are filling to invest time into them. A non-antag HoP could easily raid cargo for phasers and sec for other stuff. Even if you dont have all access it's not hard to really gear up if u know where to find stuff. You could for example rush the club on cog1. All of these (unless for a good reason like nukies) imo are examples of powergaming and in my experience generally frowned upon (for good reason). 

What originally got me into playing as a monkey was a fun encounter i had as a roboticist with Lily White as a Test Subject. I asked if she wanted to be borged, but she replied with an *eyebrow and proceeded to communicate through emotes. Point being that i can honestly say i do not play monkey for the upsides nor do i really mind the downsides, simply put i just think its fun to play as a monkey. In all the previous examples of powergaming i mentioned, the non-powergaming version would simply be to not get the items. With playing as monkey it's not that simple, the upsides and downsides come as a package, together with fun stuff like the way you look/emotes. Basicly what that means is that if i wanna be a monkey for the fun stuff and not be a powergamer, i have to decide when it's appropriate for me to use the upsides. I'm not claiming i've always done this perfectly, in a game as complex as this it takes a while to learn which action is appropriate at which time in general, and the same goes for playing as monkey. For this reason i waited quite a while before going sec monkey, i didnt wanna end up a shitsec monkey. Nowadays when i play sec monkey i always try to stay on the "on top of tables layer" for example and wear a fruithat to counteract the smaller hitbox (shoutouts to OMJ for pointing that out, a good point imo).

Another upside Flaborized mentioned is monkey stamina. The first time i was made aware monkeys even had more stamina was when i heard that their stamina had been nerfed. I can honestly say i hadn't noticed the advantage, nor had i noticed that it had been nerfed. That being said, i would not mind a further nerf to stamina, since in the animal kingdom humans actually are the kings of stamina.
Which finally leads us to the issue that sparked this discussion, namely the hiding under tables. I can fully see how fighting a monkey that has this option can be frustrating and even unfair. I would however suggest that instead of removing the ability, a way to deal with it is added instead, much in line with some of the suggestions that have been made allready, so that it is more fun for everyone involved.

I think it'd be good if you could click on the table to yank the monkey out and stun them, or maybe if doing an attack or interacting with stuff while under a table made you pop up out of it (sort of like cloak) so you couldn't beat someone to death AND be protected by a table at the same time.

I really like this idea. Currently it is allready possible to stun monkeys that are under a table with a taser, but i think it would be a good idea to add a stun, similar to doing a flip in a locker for example, possible even with the same sound effect/table movement to give away the exact possition, with a decent stun timer that is long enough for people to drag a monkey out from under a table. When it comes to melee, the same effect could happen when interacting with a table with anything commonly used as a weapon (stunbaton, fire ext. etc.) on anything except help intent (so that the normal table functionality is retained on help intent). Adding the same effect on top of tables wouldn't make sense to me personally, but it could be a nice touch that if u hit a table a monkey is standing on they get a slight stun, similar to getting hit by a flash at full stamina. As a monkey this would make going under tables a risk/reward situation, which i personally would really like.

Then there is also the fact that monkeys can use items from under tables. It could be an idea to not allow monkeys to use specific items while they are under a table, reasoning being they don't have a clear line of sight or something. When i say specific items i mean most weapons etc. tho i would suggest still allowing certain traitor items like implanters, speedinjectors etc., since they fit so well with a stealthy approach. Like Sick Ness Monster put it, it is devilishly effective, and although he felt it was a bit unfair, i'd personally argue that being devilishly effective can be very fun when you are an antag.

Unlike what people calling me a powergamer seem to think, i actually really like a challenge so i if some nerfs that would retain their fun aspects would end up make them the under(table)dogs, i wouldnt mind at all. Apologies for the length of this post.

TL;DR Monkeys have a few more, less obvious downsides most people dont seem to be aware of. The table ability however is rather unfair in certain situations but instead of removing it i suggest changing it in a way that allows for it to remain, while it no longer is an unfair advantage, hopefully adding a fun game mechanic in the process.

[OMJ]

mr. green you are the the only monkey main who doesn't play like a fucking dickhead in my experience

[Technature]

I do remember a few monkeys that play like absolute shitlers, but monkeys with colors for names don't come to mind.